Primacy or Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome

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How about a testimony from the 4th century from a historian of the time and a Pope both confirming St.Theodor :

the 4th century Church historian Socrates Scholasticus relates the following:

"Maximus, however, bishop of Jerusalem; who had succeeded Macarius, did not attend, recollecting that he had been deceived and induced to subscribe the deposition of Athanasius. Neither was Julius, bishop of the great Rome, there, nor had he sent a substitute, although an** ecclesiastical canon commands that the churches shall not make any ordinances against the opinion of the bishop of Rome.**

…On the receipt of these contradictory communications, **Julius first replied to the bishops who had written to him from Antioch, **complaining of the acrimonious feeling they had evinced in their letter, and charging them with a violation of the canons, because they had not requested his attendance at the council, seeing that the ecclesiastical law required that the churches should pass no decisions contrary to the views of the bishop of Rome "
You should have no trouble directing us to this ecclesiastical law/canon. Which council was it from? When was it promulgated?
Pope St. Zosimus of Rome (December 26) says in 417 [Letter 12:1 to the Council of Carthage in PL 20:676AB]:
Although the tradition of the Fathers has attributed to the Apostolic See so great authority that none would dare to contest its judgment, and has preserved this ever in its canons and rules, and current ecclesiastical discipline in its laws still pays the reverence which it ought to the name of Peter… For he himself has care over all the churches, and above all of that which he sat…** Since, then Peter is the head of so great authority, and has confirmed the suffrages of our forefathers since his time…and as bishops you are bound to know it; yet; though such was our authority that none could reconsider our decision.**
Pope St. Boniface I of Rome (September 4) says in 422 [Letter 13 to Bishop Rufus of Thessalonica in PL 20:776A], “For it has never been allowed to discuss again what has once been decided by the Apostolic See.”
Again, I assume you can point us to the canons and rules where this has been preserved? Should be easy shouldn’t it?
 
I would like to point out that so far as history shows no Pope of Rome was ever excommunicated but Pope Honorius was anathematized some 40 years after his death in 638AD. The Third Council of Constantinople (First Trullen) in 680 AD. I do not know if he was excommunicated over his letter to Sergius, but he was anthemtized by that Council.
 
No, that’s where you would like to turn the argument to. Historians are prone to error and subject to the information available to them at the time.

The Church has spoken through the Ecumenical Councils. The acts and the canons of the Church define and protect us from the attacks to the Faith. A historian does not.

I take it you don’t have an authoritative and ecumenical Church document that support the claims of the Bishop of Rome before the Great Schism?

I have dug really deep and have found none. I am always on the lookout for such documents. Any reference is greatly appreciated.
Yes they are prone to error but when other confirm the historians words then we can be confident of what us recorded by the historian lest we dismiss all testimonies and what we know from the ancient world.

Sorry try again with a better excuse to dismiss the testimony.

With regards to the councils themselves… Well for starters, the legates letter that was accepted unanimously as Chalcedon as well as Pope St. Agatho’s letter to the 6th general council which too was unanimously accepted. The both boast some things that modern orthodoxy cannot reconcile… No matter how much verbal gymnastics you use.
 
I would like to point out that so far as history shows no Pope of Rome was ever excommunicated but Pope Honorius was anathematized some 40 years after his death in 638AD. The Third Council of Constantinople (First Trullen) in 680 AD. I do not know if he was excommunicated over his letter to Sergius, but he was anthemtized by that Council.
What does it mean if a pope’s name has been struck from the diptychs if not excommunication?
 
I would like to point out that so far as history shows no Pope of Rome was ever excommunicated but Pope Honorius was anathematized some 40 years after his death in 638AD. The Third Council of Constantinople (First Trullen) in 680 AD. I do not know if he was excommunicated over his letter to Sergius, but he was anthemtized by that Council.
Yes. And yet he was anathematized for negligence as Pope Leo III testified when he ratified the council.
 
Yes they are prone to error but when other confirm the historians words then we can be confident of what us recorded by the historian lest we dismiss all testimonies and what we know from the ancient world.

Sorry try again with a better excuse to dismiss the testimony.

With regards to the councils themselves… Well for starters, the legates letter that was accepted unanimously as Chalcedon as well as Pope St. Agatho’s letter to the 6th general council which too was unanimously accepted. The both boast some things that modern orthodoxy cannot reconcile… No matter how much verbal gymnastics you use.
I take it you don’t have an authoritative and ecumenical Church document that support the claims of the Bishop of Rome before the Great Schism?
 
I take it you don’t have an authoritative and ecumenical Church document that support the claims of the Bishop of Rome before the Great Schism?
I mentioned two… That are part of the acts of the ecumenical synods LOL or are we ignoring what contradicts us now?
 
Well for starters, the legates letter that was accepted unanimously as Chalcedon
What does that mean? Did they take a vote? Was a canon passed declaring the contents of the letter were to be regarded as law?
as well as Pope St. Agatho’s letter to the 6th general council which too was unanimously accepted.
Same question as above.
The both boast some things that modern orthodoxy cannot reconcile… No matter how much verbal gymnastics you use.
Neither have been entered into the canons of the Church.
 
I mentioned two… That are part of the acts of the ecumenical synods LOL or are we ignoring what contradicts us now?
The acts merely record what was stated. They are not a judgement on whether the statements are right or wrong.
 
I would like to point out that so far as history shows no Pope of Rome was ever excommunicated but Pope Honorius was anathematized some 40 years after his death in 638AD. The Third Council of Constantinople (First Trullen) in 680 AD. I do not know if he was excommunicated over his letter to Sergius, but he was anthemtized by that Council.
That’s simple not true. Vigilius was excommunicated by an African synod and the 5th Ecumenical Council.
 
Does it *really *matter whether the Papacy as we see it today existed prior to the Great Schism? Or any other date, for that matter?

I don’t think it does, and Fr. Adrian Fortescue explains why.

On the Development of Papal Jurisdiction
From The Early Papacy to the Synod of Chalcedon in 451
By Fr. Adrian Fortescue

In his book originally published in 1920, Fr. Fortescue explains the expansion of the Papal Jurisdiction like this:

Has the papacy grown? In a sense it has, just as every dogma of the Church may be said to have grown…when a point of faith is disputed, when some new heresy arises, the Church makes her mind clear by defining more explicitly what she has always held. She forbids a false interpretation of the faith, and so she makes it more definite. Hence, vague statements, harmless before the controversy began, become impossible after the definition. But we do not admit that this development means any real addition to the faith; it is only a more explicit assertion of the old faith, necessary in view of false interpretations. A conspicuous case of this is the declaration of papal infallibility by the First Vatican Council. The Early Church recognized that the Pope has the final word in matters of faith, no less than in those of discipline, that she herself is protected by God against heresy. Put that together, and you have, implicitly, what the Council defined.

Besides this there has been real growth in the use of the Pope’s authority. Many matters, such as canonizations of saints, approval of religious orders and so on, once settled by the bishop of the diocese now go to Rome. Appeals are far more frequent and about smaller matters. Patriarchal and metropolitan authority over bishops has diminished very much. There has been a constant process of centralizing. This was caused in several ways. Increased facilities of communication with headquarters had something to do with it. At one time, to appeal to Rome meant a serious journey for the bearer of the letter; now it costs but a few pennies in 1920 - Randy]. Then there is the natural tendency of any society toward centralization. We can observe this almost everywhere. It becomes so much easier, shorter; it saves so much trouble to go straight to headquarters at once. Then you have the decision of the supreme authority and no possibility of further dispute.

…The spectacle of the anarchy of Protestantism, a spectacle offered to us more plainly each century, has its effects on Catholics. That is what comes of “No Popery”. What Catholic, seeing the state of Protestantism today, does not thank God that he has given to us an authority to settle disputes of religion? (Fortescue, Adrian, The Early Papacy to the Synod of Chalcedon in 451, pp.35-36, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2008.)

To be sure, some have been enjoying the debate over canons and councils in this thread immensely, but at the end of the day, what remains? The simple fact that the papacy has developed in response to the needs of the Church that has grown just as Jesus said it would.

Matthew 13:31-32
31 Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
 
Does it *really *matter whether the Papacy as we see it today existed prior to the Great Schism? Or any other date, for that matter?

I don’t think it does, and Fr. Adrian Fortescue explains why.
This is the exact same argument made by some Protestants.

Does it really matter whether the Church as we see it today existed prior to the Reformation? Or any other date, for that matter?

They don’t think it does, and many many Pastors explain why, or not.

This is a clear admission that you can’t find nothing in support of your argument for those first 1,000 years.

We both know that if you had it, you would have been all over with it.
 
Or a bad Pope. Again, there’s no exceptions for Rome to avoid being deposed/removed in those initial 1,000+ years.

And Rome is exempt from Judases because?
The Church is protected from the Bishop of Rome teaching errors in Faith and Moral by the Holy Spirit. If the Pope plans to error, God will end his life; just as it happened before.

The Pope protects the Church for heretical Bishops & Patriarchs, while the Holy Spirit protects the Church from heretical Popes. Bases are covered.

Now, it’s currently true that no one protects the Church from a criminal Pope or a Pope with bad judgment. However, that’s why the College of Cardinals selects the Pope, to hopefully select the best Pope possible. There are Eastern Rite Cardinals and if we ever reunite, there would most likely be more.

Plus, there is the media… a hypothetical criminal Pope would be casted as a villain by the media, UN, international community, etc.

But one would hope that most (if not all) Cardinals are good (if not holy) men, and not criminals. If the selection of Cardinals is done by a good man, then hopefully, he will select good men; who in turn will select a good man to be Pope.

Is it a perfect system, no because men are not perfect. But it is the system that Christ new we would have when He changed Simon to Peter.
 
Does it *really *matter whether the Papacy as we see it today existed prior to the Great Schism? Or any other date, for that matter?

I don’t think it does, and Fr. Adrian Fortescue explains why.

On the Development of Papal Jurisdiction
From The Early Papacy to the Synod of Chalcedon in 451
By Fr. Adrian Fortescue

In his book originally published in 1920, Fr. Fortescue explains the expansion of the Papal Jurisdiction like this:

Has the papacy grown? In a sense it has, just as every dogma of the Church may be said to have grown…when a point of faith is disputed, when some new heresy arises, the Church makes her mind clear by defining more explicitly what she has always held. She forbids a false interpretation of the faith, and so she makes it more definite. Hence, vague statements, harmless before the controversy began, become impossible after the definition. But we do not admit that this development means any real addition to the faith; it is only a more explicit assertion of the old faith, necessary in view of false interpretations. A conspicuous case of this is the declaration of papal infallibility by the First Vatican Council. The Early Church recognized that the Pope has the final word in matters of faith, no less than in those of discipline, that she herself is protected by God against heresy. Put that together, and you have, implicitly, what the Council defined.

Besides this there has been real growth in the use of the Pope’s authority. Many matters, such as canonizations of saints, approval of religious orders and so on, once settled by the bishop of the diocese now go to Rome. Appeals are far more frequent and about smaller matters. Patriarchal and metropolitan authority over bishops has diminished very much. There has been a constant process of centralizing. This was caused in several ways. Increased facilities of communication with headquarters had something to do with it. At one time, to appeal to Rome meant a serious journey for the bearer of the letter; now it costs but a few pennies in 1920 - Randy]. Then there is the natural tendency of any society toward centralization. We can observe this almost everywhere. It becomes so much easier, shorter; it saves so much trouble to go straight to headquarters at once. Then you have the decision of the supreme authority and no possibility of further dispute.

…The spectacle of the anarchy of Protestantism, a spectacle offered to us more plainly each century, has its effects on Catholics. That is what comes of “No Popery”. What Catholic, seeing the state of Protestantism today, does not thank God that he has given to us an authority to settle disputes of religion? (Fortescue, Adrian, The Early Papacy to the Synod of Chalcedon in 451, pp.35-36, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2008.)

To be sure, some have been enjoying the debate over canons and councils in this thread immensely, but at the end of the day, what remains? The simple fact that the papacy has developed in response to the needs of the Church that has grown just as Jesus said it would.

Matthew 13:31-32
31 Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
Hi Randy: This is great stuff way to go!
 
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