Primacy or Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome

[Isaiah45_9]

Here’s avery simple question which I suspect you will find irrelevant and somehow a “personal attack”:

How did the Church survive even one week? How did the Church survive the undocumented fairy tale that is the resurrection? Show me the documents that prove authority from the year 33 +1/52nd.
By your logic, it’s all an undocumented abuse of authority. You can look at every bit of Christianity, and by your own logic, throw it out as overstep of authority, or “traditions of men”.
“Show me the documents!!” we cry.
“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Yea that foolish Jesus, he could have settled this thing once and for all, but nooooooo, he had to entrust his mission to the weak and sinful Peter. What could he possibly be thinking?
I am not suggesting you should be an atheist. You say you are discerning. Read the words I said. I hope you remain Christian. I am pointing out the ramifications of the logic you are using.

This is a clear example of why you are being personal.

If you would have left your questions at:

How did the Church survive even one week? How did the Church survive the undocumented fairy tale that is the resurrection? Show me the documents that prove authority from the year 33 +1/52nd.

Things would have been fine. But instead you add:

Minus what you don’t like. That’s all. That’s not Tradition, that’s the traditions of men (a man).

I am not shopping for ice cream, so there is nothing for me to like. I’d like to be a Bible only believer but I can’t. There is genius in the simplicity and the devotion of someone living the Gospel without worries about what he has to believe/consent or not. But I am cursed with a conscience and a thirsty mind that wants to know everything about Christ and His Church.

A non-sequitur

You are entitled to your personal opinion.

Is it a possibility that your reason, apart from true faith, is faulty? Faith and reason go hand in hand. They inform one another. Reason is un-reasonable apart from faith. Question is, what is it, really and substantially, that you place your faith in?

Jesus Christ.

How is that my business? I have enough trouble visiting my mother on a timely basis, helping around the parish, visiting my ill siblings, living out my vocation in Christ. How is Papal “blah blah blah” any of my business? I simply trust Christ when he promises himself to the Church.

That is your personal belief. Clearly you don’t need to know anything else.

Has it crossed you mind that I too live my vocation in Christ? I can’t visit my mother because I don’t make enough money to go visit her regularly. I have to care for my wife who might have relapsed with cancer, my 2 youngest sons are autistic, I still deal with 2 PTSD’s almost on a daily basis. And still, I want to make time to learn more about Christ and His Church. I get involved in what I can with my Parish and the Church still. What you fail to realize is that I want to be honest and don’t want to sin upon sin. What happens to those who receive the body of Christ unworthily? They drink judgement to themselves.

Fundamental misunderstanding of Catholic ecclesiology. You disagree, fine, but your statements show you do not understand.
It’s difficult, starting with the Annunciation and the Incarnation. Who the heck are these people, and why would an all powerful God trust them? Why should I trust them?

Because 14 Apostles were chosen. Not just one. Because of the Church, not a single Bishop. That’s why I believe it. And because Christ has worked personally in my life. That’s why I believe in Him. Is that so hard to believe?

There’s no point in denying anything. I believe Christ was a person. He lived. He breathed. He rose. He gave the living charism of authority to real living people.
And no documents can “prove it” to a doubting mind.

Are you not bound to the Creeds, the Scriptures, the Catechism and Papal authority? Are they all not documents? St. Jerome said: ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. Scriptures can be transmitted by word of mouth and by word of letter. Why would you want to deny either one of them?

Curiously when I went to Mass yesterday we recited the Creed, which was documented at Nicea (With some changes).
At that same Mass we read from 3 documents, one from the Old Testaments and two from the New Testament.
The Priest at the Altar was also reading from a document the words of consecration among other things.

But I’m the confused one?

 

[SteveVH]

Are you not bound to the Creeds, the Scriptures, the Catechism and Papal authority? Are they all not documents? St. Jerome said: ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. Scriptures can be transmitted by word of mouth and by word of letter. Why would you want to deny either one of them?

Curiously when I went to Mass yesterday we recited the Creed, which was documented at Nicea (With some changes).
At that same Mass we read from 3 documents, one from the Old Testaments and two from the New Testament.
The Priest at the Altar was also reading from a document the words of consecration among other things.

But I’m the confused one?

And all of these culminate in the source and summit of our faith, the Eucharist, the real presence of a real Person.

But your point is taken. We need documents. Christ comes to us in many ways, certainly through his word and through our creeds and catechisms and anything else that teaches us truth.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I have been thinking of you, Isaiah…

Sister, you honor me when I don’t deserve it. Your prayers are most welcome, thank you.

People have all sorts of reasons for not entering the Church…this or that…or this or that statement…

You have to ask Christ for faith…and then take one step…and the Lord and the Church will come to you…once you are centered in Christ…the Church becomes the living sacrament so to speak…alive.

It is not us or documents…or the “I” don’t understand this or that…we are all flesh, even our way of looking at things.

It is the Holy Spirit Who is our binding Agent…He is the one to carry you to the full truth of Jesus Christ and into communion with the Holy Trinity.

There is conflict between my conscience and Catholicism. I am “forcing” belief in things that I just don’t see throughout the ages in the Church.

Would you ignore a Church dogma(s) and receive the Sacraments in good conscience?

I can’t.

I have no doubt that the Catholic Church is part of the Church established by Christ with the Apostles. Just as I have no doubt that the Orthodox is part of this very same Church. Just as I have no doubt of other separated traditions from Catholicism are part of the very same Church.

As Catholics we spurn new developments away from Rome (Protestantism) and we criticize others for not developing more (Orthodox).

And yet we claim to have received the faith once for all delivered to the saints and at the same time we advocate new developments of that same faith necessary for salvation thousand of years later.

More developments don’t necessarily mean growth and less developments don’t necessarily mean stagnation.

When we argue with Protestants we claim the documents of the Church.
When we argue with Orthodox we claim silence and unwritten practices.

It is a constant contradiction. The “both/and” gets blurred and the only way to reconcile them is ignoring one or the other.

We claim things to be a mystery and yet we claim the most doctrines and dogmas of any other faith in the planet. How much of a mystery is left if we document everything we can lay our hands on? How much of a mystery is left if we have to assent to doctrines that escape human understanding?

Either we believe or we don’t believe.

**I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come.

Amen.**

Either the Fathers and the Church got it right or they didn’t.

 

[benhur]

Here’s avery simple question which I suspect you will find irrelevant and somehow a “personal attack”:

How did the Church survive even one week? How did the Church survive the undocumented fairy tale that is the resurrection?

Wow! Not even apples and oranges. Scripture is much more definitive on the resurrection than on Peter’s successor being above all others. Much, much, much more.

 

[benhur]

I have been thinking of you, Isaiah…

People have all sorts of reasons for not entering the Church…this or that…or this or that statement…

You have to ask Christ for faith…and then take one step…and the Lord and the Church will come to you…once you are centered in Christ…the Church becomes the living sacrament so to speak…alive.

It is not us or documents…or the “I” don’t understand this or that…we are all flesh, even our way of looking at things.

It is the Holy Spirit Who is our binding Agent…He is the one to carry you to the full truth of Jesus Christ and into communion with the Holy Trinity.

So Kathy , do all need to hear this if they are not papists ? Have they not worn your very shoes to arrive at another view ? Beautifully described shoes though(faith, steps, Christ centered, Holy Spirit unctioning).

 

[prodromos]

Hi rcwitness: Great post much history there.

In case you hadn’t noticed, the article quoted by rcwitness has already been debunked in the following thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=918964

Hmm. Just noticed that rcwitness was a participant in the above thread. A bit disingenuous to post an article from that thread here as if it was reliable after it had been demonstrated otherwise not long before

 

[spina1953]

In case you hadn’t noticed, the article quoted by rcwitness has already been debunked in the following thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=918964

Any one can debunk anything they like that does not mean its not so.

 

[prodromos]

Any one can debunk anything they like that does not mean its not so.

 

[guanophore]

It still works in a similar fashion today. Priests commemorate their bishop. Each bishop commemorates the primate of their Church. Each primate commemorates the other primates in order of the diptychs. Here is how it looks in practice today.

The Chanting of the Diptychs

After the clergy (or choir) have sung the final Kontakion, the Archdeacon or Protodeacon comes before the royal doors.

This is very beautiful. I can hear it! I have witnessed something very similar at our local Ruthenian parish, but since they are Latinized, they do not do all of them. What a beautiful and rich tradition, and keeping everyone so mindful of the unity that must preserve us in the bonds of peace.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sorry, Isaiah if I offended you in anyway…yes, I see your angst…How I deal with things…and i muse alot about my faith in the middle of the night and where I really am with the Lord and what He will see in me when He comes to meet me.

We know very well the vast forces that affect our faith, our traditions, our denominations…and then I have to pull back…and wonder if I am in a spot…or if I have to die to myself more…what I am hoping to do in my own personal dilemna of faith is to pull out of myself…and go out to people…who are unchurched…

When I was young I was more in this movement, may be my faith more on the emotional level…but I am seeing a new path of letting go of some issues…and stepping out…

I was deeply moved by Thomas DuBay’s book, ‘Faith and Certitude’…I am sorry if I am misunderstanding you…I was going out this am…and I think the word I was seeking was certitude…it can only be in the Lord.

I see you are deeply called to the needs of your family and as such…conditions like this draw us deeper into the kind of place you are in…persevere because how you are and where you are…will bear much fruit.

I think when it comes to history, I have to repeat the mystery theologian…that history is based on the person’s experience and outlook…and and with your family needs…and the type of needs they have, they bring you to the foot of the Cross.

Yes, I do think of people’s comments and searches…and yours is most profound and brings forth great points…I want to get back to our theologian and ask more questions…but it seems like it is the effect of the Holy Spirit and the communion we have shared…on the barque of Peter in the stormy sea.

A bishop told me unity is most fragile in the Church which seems to have so many contradictions. Tomorrow I return to Mass and will offer up the Mass for you and your family and that you experience great presence of the Lord where you are at in your life.

God bless!
kathleen

 

[KathleenGee]

Benhur, a book that brought out the Spirit of the Liturgy was called just that by former Cardinal Ratzinger. I have read he has been the Church’s greatest theologian and he was intending to bring more renewal to the Mass…and when I read his works, I immediately experience this communion with the Lord and this great expanse of the universal at the ordinary daily Mass.

I pray so much that we be one…no, you don’t have to be Papist…but there is so much more there in the Lord Himself among us.

I have gone to a Lutheran service almost every week this past year.

Only today…I heard that my client passed away this past Friday evening. I went one Sunday to pick his pastor’s homily and read it to him…regarding All Saints and most present to his present condition in the dying process. I haven’t called the family yet. I could not do 12 hour shifts with him because I had week day clients and saw him on the weekends. I had prior hospice work with his wife who died a little over a year ago.

There at the Lutheran service I experienced the same Lord…but it is the depth of the Mass and the communion of saints that needed to be shared with them more deeply.

I mean to say, there is so much more for our mutual communion and that can only come if we are under one pastor, one shepherd. No we are not better…not at all…but I feel this gap in my being where we are not truly one…One Bread, One Body…that is where I am coming from…

I will include all of you tomorrow as well in the Mass.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Sorry, Isaiah if I offended you in anyway…yes, I see your angst…
God bless!
kathleen

You of all people, have not offended me.

God Bless you as well.

Jose

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Yes, I do think of people’s comments and searches…and yours is most profound and brings forth great points…I want to get back to our theologian and ask more questions…but it seems like it is the effect of the Holy Spirit and the communion we have shared…on the barque of Peter in the stormy sea.

This is the one passage that always keeps me going. Keeping my eyes on Jesus, or like Peter, if I look around at the storm I drown.

A bishop told me unity is most fragile in the Church which seems to have so many contradictions. Tomorrow I return to Mass and will offer up the Mass for you and your family and that you experience great presence of the Lord where you are at in your life.

God bless!
kathleen

Thank you Kathleen.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The point that is missed is that Christianity is a new development. It is an ongoing new development. If that is not accepted, then Christ is still dead on the cross. Christianity is living and organic because Christianity is a person, not a book. Christianity proposes that God became a person, like us in all things but sin.

**To claim that certain developments are invalid because they are “new” is meaningless in
Christianity. **

Those are a straw men…

Not once have I said that Christianity is a book. It is about Christ. Christ established a Church.

The problem is not that they are new.

The problem with these particular new developments in regards to the papacy - is that it lacks the consensus of the Whole Church.
The problem with these particular new developments in regards to the papacy - is that it is born out of division.

The Creed was “new” when it was proclaimed for the first time.
The Trinity was “new” when it was proclaimed for the first time.

Both of them were done by the Whole Church, contrary to the new developments of the papacy.

You want to minimize the Church to one Bishop where I want to maximize the Church to all the Bishops.

Like any good mother, the Church appeals to the reason of it’s children to accept Christ and to trust leaders that have the charism of authority.
But in the face of obstinacy, our mother must at last say, like our worldly mothers have said to us:

"it is so, because I say it is so."

Here is the sum of all your argumentation!

The problem is that you have nothing to really argue about in this thread, as such you want to throw away all books, documents, Church history, Councils, and make an entire Theology out of a single passage in the Bible.

Which is ironic because that is the only way you know about the keys and Christ words to Peter. By reading the Scriptures and the Fathers, or by someone who read the Scriptures and the Fathers.

You were not present when Christ said that to Peter. It is recorded in the Scriptures and the Church received them and protected them and proclaimed them. As early as St. Justin Martyr (140AD) we see that during the Divine Liturgy the readings of the Apostles were read among the faithful.

Imagine that! Reading documents while worshiping Christ!

You cannot, on one hand, tell me to discard documents and then, on the other hand, claim the very same documents I discarded and base authority upon them. It doesn’t work like that.

You know about Christ in the very same way I know about Christ:

Sacred Scriptures.
Sacred Tradition.
Holy Mother Church.

Unless you had an encounter like that of Paul. Which I have experienced similarly, but not in initial revelation.

 

[benhur]

Benhur, a book that brought out the Spirit of the Liturgy was called just that by former Cardinal Ratzinger. I have read he has been the Church’s greatest theologian and he was intending to bring more renewal to the Mass…and when I read his works, I immediately experience this communion with the Lord and this great expanse of the universal at the ordinary daily Mass.

I pray so much that we be one…no, you don’t have to be Papist…but there is so much more there in the Lord Himself among us.

I have gone to a Lutheran service almost every week this past year.

Only today…I heard that my client passed away this past Friday evening. I went one Sunday to pick his pastor’s homily and read it to him…regarding All Saints and most present to his present condition in the dying process. I haven’t called the family yet. I could not do 12 hour shifts with him because I had week day clients and saw him on the weekends. I had prior hospice work with his wife who died a little over a year ago.

There at the Lutheran service I experienced the same Lord…but it is the depth of the Mass and the communion of saints that needed to be shared with them more deeply.

I mean to say, there is so much more for our mutual communion and that can only come if we are under one pastor, one shepherd. No we are not better…not at all…but I feel this gap in my being where we are not truly one…One Bread, One Body…that is where I am coming from…

I will include all of you tomorrow as well in the Mass.

Thank you. Passion in action for one another in the Lord can be boundless and beyond doctrine and practice and rites that can divide. Like Jesus said, that is true religion.

 

[guanophore]

The Creed was “new” when it was proclaimed for the first time.
The Trinity was “new” when it was proclaimed for the first time.

Codswallop!

These beliefs were held since the beginning. Only the formal statement of them was “new”.

Your previous argument is much better - that the papal declarations about his perogatives and authority are not part of the original deposit of faith.

This approach will not work at all.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Codswallop!

These beliefs were held since the beginning. Only the formal statement of them was “new”.

Your previous argument is much better - that the papal declarations about his perogatives and authority are not part of the original deposit of faith.

This approach will not work at all.

That’s why they are in " ".

ETA: I had to look up “codswallop”

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s why they are in " ".

ETA: I had to look up “codswallop”

The Catholic Church follows the Petrine history which is indicated by the letters left by the Church throughout this thread. Or more clearly here…

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fordham.edu%2Fhalsall%2Fsource%2Fleo1a.asp&ei=KDZrVOLVF4eayQTz9YKQDQ&usg=AFQjCNH4ghIn5NGCCP_kM-2SctboaRKoqA

The ecumenical work by the Coptic Pope I mentioned explains all this and realizes we are talking 3- different ways to view Christology, the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant.

According to my readings and posting the Petrine view is the only one which initially existed in regards to the first 300 years. So imho what is new and developed resulted past this era.

So its a matter of “conscience” for all of us. But the issue of unity still remains and the Petrine view is the prevailing view supported by the preponderance of evidence imho and the Catholic Churchs.

The conversation doesn’t start in 325.

 

[rcwitness]

In case you hadn’t noticed, the article quoted by rcwitness has already been debunked in the following thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=918964

Hmm. Just noticed that rcwitness was a participant in the above thread. A bit disingenuous to post an article from that thread here as if it was reliable after it had been demonstrated otherwise not long before

Debunked

I am not sure what you mean. Was there a specific post that you can reference? I did not see the majority of the posts in that thread. I have referenced that encyclopedia article before Randy’s thread.

How so has that article misrepresented facts or history? The only posts I saw which may be an attempt to “debunk” the article was someone stating their opinion that it was bias.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The Catholic Church follows the Petrine history which is indicated by the letters left by the Church throughout this thread. Or more clearly here…

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fordham.edu%2Fhalsall%2Fsource%2Fleo1a.asp&ei=KDZrVOLVF4eayQTz9YKQDQ&usg=AFQjCNH4ghIn5NGCCP_kM-2SctboaRKoqA

The ecumenical work by the Coptic Pope I mentioned explains all this and realizes we are talking 3- different ways to view Christology, the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant.

According to my readings and posting the Petrine view is the only one which initially existed in regards to the first 300 years. So imho what is new and developed resulted past this era.

So its a matter of “conscience” for all of us. But the issue of unity still remains and the Petrine view is the prevailing view supported by the preponderance of evidence imho and the Catholic Churchs.

The conversation doesn’t start in 325.

The Church in Rome was truly strong during this initial years. Who else had 2 giants like Peter and Paul in their midst?

And the arguments are indeed appealing and it possibly demonstrate preponderance. But not enough for probable cause. Since you are familiar with the terms, I suspect, you understand that preponderance does not mean beyond a reasonable doubt. If the Petrine legacy was so clear from the beginning then the Councils and Sacred Traditoin would have have showned the claims after the 1,400’s. But that is not the case. Not even in the West was that the case. Constance and Basel being the greatest witness of how Councils can protect the Church from heretic Bishops - as it has happened throughout history. Not a single soul would have believed that the Papal Schism was possible until it happened. Thank God, Church government was not ammended in the way it is today at the time and the Councils were able to resolve the problems. That is no longer possible under present doctrines, dogmas, and disciplines.