Primacy or Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome

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They are not logical at all. The entire idea of Peter being a “royal steward” and that office passing to certain bishops and the power of that office consisting of personal infallibility and supremacy are all your interpolations. They are not found in the Scriptures themselves or the Ecumenical Councils. The greatest heretics could do the same thing and twist the Scripture to mean all kinds of things. Protestants still do that to this day. You can’t start with a modern belief and then start cherry picking things to support that belief. You start at the beginning and look to see what was lived and believed. If you do that you don’t see anything resembling the modern papacy.
🙂

Does the presidency of Barack Obama look the same as the presidency of George Washington?

The founding fathers of our nation could not have foreseen all that a modern president would be responsible for and the authority that he would wield. (In fact, they may have cringed if they had known!) But that does not make Obama any less the true holder of that office.

The difference is that God COULD foresee the modern papacy.

And He established it anyway.
 
Here is just one oft used example:

Catholics love to point to Matt. 16 to “prove” their point, but what do verses 18-20 really tell us? Well, even if Christ, in some sense, establishes His Church on Peter that doesn’t prove anything. All bishops are successors of Peter. The Church is built on the bishops.
You’re right, and more Orthodox need to hear you: Jesus DID build the Church upon Peter.

But Jesus did not say, “You are Peter and upon these rocks I will build my church.” He promised to build upon one rock, Simon, whom He renamed Cephas (Heb. kepha) or Peter (Gr. petros).

If Peter is the rock, then the Church was not built upon “rocks” - it was built upon one rock.

Therefore, you have not actually disproven the role of the papacy.
 
But again you are making logical leaps and interpolations the Church did not. Even an extremely superficial reading of Church history shows that. Popes were excommunicated, anathematized, ignored, disputed, contradicted, refused, corrected, admonished and rebuked by many people over many centuries and across the entire Church. You can make the argument I suppose that shows nothing but the sinfulness of those who did those things but then you have to take the modern papacy on sheer faith because it can’t be seen from a rational reading of history. Once something is made into a matter of faith no rational arguments will dissuade you.
Actually, I am following the logical development of doctrine. A concept foreign to you as an Orthodox Christian. If you think doctrine DOES develop, just wait a moment - Cavaradossi will be along to get you back in line. 😉

However, you are correct, Popes are not impeccable. They are infallible. So, while some (and the number is smaller than the propagandists admit) were scoundrels, the vast majority have been sincere servants of the Church and of God.

This doesn’t really abrogate the authority given to Peter by Jesus, though, does it? :nope:
 
Tradition informs the reading of Scripture. Go read St. Irenaeus or St. Basil. It is completely true that Scripture is sufficient in itself, being the inspired word of God, but the reader is not quite so lucky, and hence only by virtue of the living tradition can the reader understand the interior order of the Scriptures.
Well, I certainly agree with you here, Cav. This is a big problem with Protestantism as you know.

However, I must ask: what is this “living tradition” of which you speak? Knowing your objections to the development of doctrine (and our previous disagreements over the ossification of Orthodoxy), how can you claim that Orthodox have anything but a dead tradition? Will you say that Orthodox theology is alive but not growing? Or alive and growing but somehow not developing? Is this even possible?

I’m not insisting that it is dead, btw, just puzzled as it appears you want to have it both ways.
To paraphrase St. Irenaeus, each verse of scripture is like a gem which goes into a mosaic, but without some knowledge of what the image is, one could reconfigure the gems into all manner of images. Imagine that the gems originally went together to form the image of a king, but that then somebody took the gems, reconfigured them into a dog, and then told everybody that this was the original design of the artisan who made the mosaic. That is essentially what heretics do. The verses of scripture (the gems) are the same, but their interior ordering has been reconfigured into something other than the original.
I understand and accept your analogy. However, what if each apostle or Church Father saw some of the individual gems in varying degrees of clarity as well as the overall outline of the original image *without *necessarily understanding all the detail?

Isn’t that how it really works? Different saints saw different aspects of the gospel more clearly than others? Only the Church as a whole sees the full picture. (one reason why Catholics and Orthodox need each other, btw)

The apostles didn’t develop the hypostatic union. That came later. The creeds, the doctrines of the trinity, the understanding of Mary, etc. - all these were developed as the Church had time to pray and reflect upon what had been delivered once for all to the saints.

So, just like working a jigsaw puzzle which does have an image to be created, one by one the pieces are put into place, but not every father saw every piece in its proper relation to the others.
What you are setting up is actually similar to Martin Luther’s scriptural hermeneutic, where tradition is assumed to have grown decadent with superfluous accumulations, and where it therefore must be judged against a personal interpretation of the ‘plain meaning’ of the Scriptures. In essence, you are basically advocating Sola Scriptura.
No one has ever accused me of that before. 😛
But if you do not believe me, then allow me to issue to you a challenge. Without anything but Scripture, I wish for you to demonstrate that the so-called ‘monoepiscopacy’ (having one bishop alone in one city, who controls all of the presbyters and deacons there) is an apostolic arrangement and not some later arrangement (as was argued by St. Jerome). After all, this claim seems to me to be an unspoken assumption behind your royal steward claim, so I find it reasonable to ask that this assumption be proved.
Titus 1:5
The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

Is that multiple elders per town or multiple elders because there was more than one town?

But that is actually irrelevant, because I have never said that monoepiscopacy is essential to my argument for the Royal Steward. In fact, I have stated the opposite when I asked:

Does the existence of other, lesser stewards (who have their own legitimate areas of authority) limit the authority of the Chief Steward in any way?

Despite the existence of other, lesser stewards, don’t Peter’s successors, the Bishops of Rome, continue to serve in the office of the King’s Royal Steward today?

Eisenhower was the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces. That doesn’t mean that Patton, Montgomery and all the other generals didn’t have their own legitimate authority.

In the Supreme Court, there is a Chief Justice whose responsibilities and authority goes beyond that of the other justices.

There are lots of examples, each filled with its own strengths and weaknesses as is often the case with analogies, but I think these suffice to illustrate the point.
 
  1. Is Jesus a king?*
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  1. In light of the fact that Jesus chooses phrasing nearly identical to that of the passage from Is. 22 and the fact that God enables both Joseph and Peter to answer their respective kings’ questions with divinely-inspired wisdom, did Jesus intend to re-establish the office of the Royal Steward?
Yes. But the Church as a Whole disagrees with the exercise of authority the Royal Steward has in its present form. And it was absent for over a thousand years as Church history has demonstrated.
  1. Does Is. 22:20-22 suggest that the office of the Royal Steward is a perpetual office?
The Kingdom of God is eternal. However, you are narrowing down the office to a single See whereas it is the entire Body of Christ.
  1. Does the election of Matthias in Acts 2 support the idea that the office of Steward is a perpetual office?
No. It actually supports the 12, not the 1.
  1. Is the authority of Peter to bind and loose limited in anyway by the phrase “whatever you bind…whatever you loose”?
Yes. Matthew 18:18 (In light of Mathew 18:1 – the audience is the disciples, we are not even given a number). Logic alone demonstrates that the whatever binds cannot collide with itself. It clearly supports that the binding is not by a single person alone but by the collective.
  1. Does any passage of scripture explicitly state that any apostle other than Peter was given the keys as the symbol of the office of chief steward?
You understand how Sola Scriptura you have been sounding like lately? You are making the same argumentation Protestants make when they want to exclude Church history because it collides with what they are presenting. As such they want to limit it to scriptures alone.

The answer is not that I know of.
  1. Does the existence of other, lesser stewards (who have their own legitimate areas of authority) limit the authority of the Chief Steward in any way?
Yes. See Mathew 18 above. The Chief Steward cannot bind against the binding of the others.
  1. Despite the existence of other, lesser stewards, don’t Peter’s successors, the Bishops of Rome, continue to serve in the office of the King’s Royal Steward today?
As they do in the other Sees. (1 Timothy 3:15-16).
 
Which Church Fathers drew that connection and then furthermore connected it to the bishop of Rome? Since you are knowledgeable, I trust that you know that all faithful Roman Catholics as far as scripture is concerned are charged in the Tridentine Creed never to “take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.”
Just out of curiosity, which Church Fathers denied that Matthew 16:18-19 was not connected to Isaiah 22:20-22 or that Peter was the Royal Steward in the household of Jesus?

We know that Jesus gave authority to the other apostles; this is not an issue. But that does not preclude the office of the Chief Steward.

Tell you what, I would like four things from you if you would be so kind.
  1. A simple explanation of the difference between primacy and supremacy.
  2. THE verse of scripture which provides the BEST illustration of Peter’s primacy.
  3. THE verse of scripture which provides the BEST denial of Peter’s primacy.
  4. ONE (and one only) quote from a Church Father denying Peter’s supremacy as defined in #1 above.
One example of each should help us to keep this manageable. Thanks. 😉
 
Well, I have to say that it is truly amazing what you can find with Google.

Now, I know that you place great value on the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, but before I share with you what I have found, I need your assurances that you will convert to the Catholic faith on basis of incontrovertible evidence regarding to Peter, Eliakim and the office of the Royal Steward from the writings.

To be clear, just one passage from a Church Father that connects Peter with Eliakim as steward will be sufficient evidence that you should be Catholic and not Orthodox, right?

Do we have a deal?
Ideally, it would be something which states that Jesus intended to reestablish the office of a royal steward. A type-antitype relationship would be less convincing, because of how antitypes being the fulfillment of their types often differ slightly from their types, but it would be a great place to start a discussion.
 
Okay. That’s a yes.
That’s a yes.

Does this strike anyone else as a really big admission?
The Kingdom of God is eternal. However, you are narrowing down the office to a single See whereas it is the entire Body of Christ.
That’s a yes.

And no, I’m not narrowing it down; all I’m saying is that Jesus is an eternal king who will be served by Royal Stewards indefinitely.
No. It actually supports the 12, not the 1.
I’m not saying that the election of Matthias support the idea of the Royal Steward specifically; I’m saying that the election of Matthias supports the idea that apostolic succession is legitimate (denied by Protestants). You agree with this, correct?
Yes. Matthew 18:18 (In light of Mathew 18:1 – the audience is the disciples, we are not even given a number). Logic alone demonstrates that the whatever binds cannot collide with itself. It clearly supports that the binding is not by a single person alone but by the collective.
Does the Authority of the Father limit the authority of the Son?

Each bishop is autonomous in his own diocese. However, the pope MAY intervene when necessary if circumstances demand it. Barring such intervention, the Bishop is the final authority.
You understand how Sola Scriptura you have been sounding like lately? You are making the same argumentation Protestants make when they want to exclude Church history because it collides with what they are presenting. As such they want to limit it to scriptures alone.
The answer is not that I know of.
I’m simply asking you to open up your Bible and show me - no, show the World where the other apostles were given keys. Not authority - but the keys that only one man, the Royal Steward, was entitled to wear.

Of course, it’s not there. So, while authoritative, the others were not the Chief Steward. Only Peter held that position.
Yes. See Mathew 18 above. The Chief Steward cannot bind against the binding of the others.
Since the apostles were individually infallible, none of them could err. Consequently, this could not occur. Bishops, on the other hand, are not individually infallible, so a Pope may have to overrule one of them.
As they do in the other Sees. (1 Timothy 3:15-16).
The other bishops are rightly seen as the successors of the apostles, but again, they are not individually infallible. Additionally, only one, the Bishop of Rome, has succeeded to the office of the Chief Steward and Keeper of the Keys.

One Lord. One Faith. One Baptism. One Flock. One Shepherd. One King. One Royal Steward. One office. One set of keys.

But wow.

Jesus intended to re-establish the Office of the Royal Steward.

This is a good day. 👍
 
Okay. That’s a yes.

That’s a yes.

Does this strike anyone else as a really big admission?

That’s a yes.

And no, I’m not narrowing it down; all I’m saying is that Jesus is an eternal king who will be served by Royal Stewards indefinitely.

I’m not saying that the election of Matthias support the idea of the Royal Steward specifically; I’m saying that the election of Matthias supports the idea that apostolic succession is legitimate (denied by Protestants). You agree with this, correct?

Does the Authority of the Father limit the authority of the Son?

Each bishop is autonomous in his own diocese. However, the pope MAY intervene when necessary if circumstances demand it. Barring such intervention, the Bishop is the final authority.

I’m simply asking you to open up your Bible and show me - no, show the World where the other apostles were given keys. Not authority - but the keys that only one man, the Royal Steward, was entitled to wear.

Of course, it’s not there. So, while authoritative, the others were not the Chief Steward. Only Peter held that position.

Since the apostles were individually infallible, none of them could err. Consequently, this could not occur. Bishops, on the other hand, are not individually infallible, so a Pope may have to overrule one of them.

The other bishops are rightly seen as the successors of the apostles, but again, they are not individually infallible. Additionally, only one, the Bishop of Rome, has succeeded to the office of the Chief Steward and Keeper of the Keys.

One Lord. One Faith. One Baptism. One Flock. One Shepherd. One King. One Royal Steward. One office. One set of keys.

But wow.

Jesus intended to re-establish the Office of the Royal Steward.

This is a good day. 👍
There is no admission to anything Randy. There are facts and interpretations.

The current state of the Bishop of Rome is absent from the first thousand years +. That is as obvious as the keys.

The authority of the Father and Son is expressed in both Matt 16 and Matt 18. The Catholic position is in violation of the Law of Non-Contradiction. The bindings cannot contradict themselves. The Catholic binding is in contradiction to the binding of the Church as a Whole.

As you clearly admit, Councils are not your forte. You really need to read and study them more [if] you want to truly understand how the Whole Church operates when it is united.
 
Randy,

What is the difference between “to lead” and “to rule”?
 
In following this thread, What seems to me to be missing is that the Bishop of Rome is first the Bishop of Rome and therefore equal to the other Bishops just as Peter was equal with the rest of the Apostles. As Pope he is the leader of the Church and speaks for the Church just as Peter was the leader of the Apostles and spokesman for them and the early Church.
 
And claims to supreme jurisdiction and temporal authority were not politically motivated? I would agree with you that canon 28 happened for political reasons. Constantinople was the capital of the Empire so it was given the same privileges as Rome who herself received privileges because it used to be the capital.
No, Rome never received its privileges because it was the capital, it received its privileges based on the fact that Rome or rather its bishop was the successor to Saint Peter. This is why Pope St. Leo refused to give his assent to canon 28:
LETTER CIV: (To Marcian Augustus, about the presumption of Anatolius, by the hand of Lucian the bishop and Basil the deacon.)
Leo, the bishop, to Marcian Augustus.
III. The City of Constantinople, royal though it be, can never be raised to Apostolic rank.
Let the city of Constantinople have, as we desire, its high rank, and under the protection of God’s right hand, long enjoy your clemency’s rule. Yet things secular stand on a different basis from things divine: and there can be no sure building save on that rock which the Lord has laid for a foundation. He that covets what is not his due, loses what is his own. Let it be enough for Anatolius that by the aid of your piety and by my favour and approval he has obtained the bishopric of so great a city. Let him not disdain a city which is royal, though he cannot make it an Apostolic See[3]; and let him on no account hope that he can rise by doing injury to others. **For the privileges of the churches determined by the canons of the holy Fathers, and fixed by the decrees of the Nicene Synod, cannot be overthrown by any unscrupulous act, nor disturbed by any innovation. And in the faithful execution of this task by the aid of Christ I am bound to display an unflinching devotion; for it is a charge entrusted to me, and it tends to my condemnation if the rules sanctioned by the Fathers and drawn up under the guidance of God’s Spirit at the Synod of Nicaea for the government of the whole Church are violated with my connivance **(which God forbid), and if the wishes of a single brother have more weight with me than the common good of the Lord’s whole house.
crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/677/St._Leo_the_Great___Letters_60_173.html
I would love if you would quote the canon from Trullo. Normally Roman Catholics don’t accept Trullo. But even if Trullo did say that again it doesn’t help your case because again Rome rejected it but it went into full effect for the rest of the Church.
We don’t accept Trullo as ecumenical, but that isn’t to say that some of its canon has not already been endorsed by the Catholic Church via other councils, i.e., the canons of Sardica . . . etc.
And finally could you please cite the canons that Gelasius refers to?
The canons of Sardica, III, IV and V.
Again papal testimonies of themselves aren’t particularly convincing and fall completely flat when you look at the context of what actually happened. Three easy examples, 28th Chalcedon, Pope Vigilius and Pope Honorius. 😉
Well, since your understanding of the context in which it took place isn’t particularly convincing, I would say that I’m a okay with where I stand. 😉
I would also add finally that there are canons that ascribe to Constantinople the final place of appeal. 👍
Well since both EAST and WEST accept the canons of Sardica, which if you read them do indeed ascribe Rome as the final place of appeal (it was already customary to appeal to Rome prior to the making of these canons), then I would say that those canons to which you refer to are null and void, or are you suggesting that said canons have universal acceptance??? And if they do please note where and when this happened?? 👍
 
Were they ok with it? I don’t know but they accepted it. And again, it’s not a question of what Rome accepted, it’s a matter of what the rest of the Church accepted. In fact it’s not at all surprising the popes wouldn’t accept it.
For canon 28 to be considered ecumenical it had to be accepted by both East and West, and that is exactly my point, i.e., the whole Church did not accept it, not least ways, the West.
 
Not Sola Cephas.

Peter AND Paul were in Rome.

A better argument for Rome is made by Dr Marshall in the Eternal City.

Sola Cephas is like Sola Scriptura: Absent.
 
Not Sola Cephas.

Peter AND Paul were in Rome.

A better argument for Rome is made by Dr Marshall in the Eternal City.

Sola Cephas is like Sola Scriptura: Absent.
Yes, both Peter and Paul were in Rome, yet the bishop of Rome is considered the successor to Saint Peter because Peter was ordained by Christ to be the head of His earthly Church, and as such needed successors to succeed him.
 
For canon 28 to be considered ecumenical it had to be accepted by both East and West, and that is exactly my point, i.e., the whole Church did not accept it, not least ways, the West.
Needless to say, the East has not agreed to the canons of the West after the Great Schism. Which is exactly my point.

The Western developments are not ecumenical. They lack the consent and agreement of the other Sees in order to be binding (Matt 18).
 
Yes, both Peter and Paul were in Rome, yet the bishop of Rome is considered the successor to Saint Peter because Peter was ordained by Christ to be the head of His earthly Church, and as such needed successors to succeed him.
Just as the other Sees have successors.

To lead and to rule is not the same.
 
Just as the other Sees have successors.

To lead and to rule is not the same.
Yes, they do, but only one can truly claim to be the successor to Peter, i.e., the bishop of Rome, and as per Scripture and Tradition, he is the head of the visible Church!

Moreover, the terms “lead” and “rule” are not mutually exclusive, i.e., there is overlapping.
 
Needless to say, the East has not agreed to the canons of the West after the Great Schism. Which is exactly my point.

The Western developments are not ecumenical. They lack the consent and agreement of the other Sees in order to be binding (Matt 18).
The Eastern Orthodox have schismed from the one true Church, so I hardly think it’s fair to say that we cannot hold ecumenical councils because of its voluntary absence/division from the Catholic Church. It’s like saying that because the non-Chalcedonians are no longer part of our Church that any and all councils after Ephesus are null and void, moreover, we do have an Eastern presence in our Church.

p.s. Canon 28 was proposed when the Church was still one and whole (for the most part), therefore, to assume that it was accepted universally by the Church is hogwash. It wasn’t.
 
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