Primary Reasons for People Becoming Orthodox?

[chrisb]

Excuse me, I wasn’t aware you were having an argument. I was just sharing a story. I think I left the oven on…pardon me…

I thought I was voicing agreement with your earlier statement?

I was only using an illustration to illuminate the problem of the presumption that some hold. Not, necessarily ‘you’. We’re here with thousands of others all reading this forums. I thought it would be useful to offer illustrations.

 

[Alethiaphile]

The Orthodox in the US have the very same abuse & abuse coverup issues… and handled it almost as poorly… but missed mainstream press notice mostly due to being an trivial fraction of the overall US population.

See pokrov.org/

Nope, sorry. It isn’t anything close if only for the reason that Orthodoxy in the US isn’t nearly as organized and centralized as the Catholic Church.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Your presumption that because the Divine Liturgy is longer (2 to 3 times) than a Sunday Mass that it means that Orthodox Christians are guilty of being Prideful…is really a strange presumption that I just don’t understand.

Seems to me that you are guilty of judging the hearts of people you don’t even know. My recommendation is that you leave judgements to Christ.

Doesn’t the Sacred Scriptures say somewhere something like take the beam out of your own eye before you try to take a splinter out of someone else’s?

O and BTW, there were plenty of elderly gentlemen at the Russian Orthodox Church today and they stayed to the very end although I noticed that at about 2 hours in, one of them sat down. The service ended just over an hour later & 2 elderly gentleman and 1 elderly woman were sitting by then. You who judge so harshly, do you judge them as being less holy because that took a seat as compared to the other elderly who remained standing the entire service?

So an elderly gentleman who can’t attend long services is less holy than someone who attends a very long service? Sounds like the Pharisees… having a outward show of religion but were hypocrites because they did not led holy lives.

I can understand one’s desire to ‘establish’ one’s faith through works but I would be careful that we not assume works for faith.

We are ultimately saved by grace through faith… so that we have no reason to boast. Yet I see the opposite happening here and elsewhere…

As I’ve said before, I can appreciate us attempting to establish our faith through works but that was never to be a show of our works to claim one more holy than another? Yet that is what I see, time and time again.

If you want to see holiness, see it within the Virtue of one another not in the lengths of this prayer or that Liturgy or even the length of this fast or the amounts of that Alms-giving.

Virtue is the fruit of true holiness. The first of these is Humility nor Pride.

 

[chrisb]

Your presumption that because the Divine Liturgy is longer (2 to 3 times) than a Sunday Mass that it means that Orthodox Christians are guilty of being Prideful…is really a strange presumption that I just don’t understand.

Would please point out where I made such a statement?

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Would please point out where I made such a statement?

Re-read your posts # 175 & #177

 

[chrisb]

Re-read your posts # 175 & #177

I just reread both and I fail see where I presumed “that because the Divine Liturgy is longer (2 to 3 times) than a Sunday Mass that it means that Orthodox Christians are guilty of being Prideful…”

What I said was… “I would hope that ‘length of Liturgy’ didn’t so often to assumed as more holy or more devout. Such outward shows of devotion don’t necessarily show anything about a parish, tradition or people. Most Orthodox, that I know, don’t even show up till well into the actual Liturgy and aren’t present at most of the parishes Vespers, Great Vespers, Vigils, etc. From my experience there seems to be a ‘core’ in each Parish who attend these but the vast majority don’t… I see too many Orthodox who pridefully point this out of their own tradition and after inquiring into Orthodoxy myself, I’m not sure why.”

This is not a presumption but an observation from my own personal dialogue with Orthodox Christians. You may find that offensive but you shouldn’t misrepresent what I have said here.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Chrisb,

It is presumption on your part. Try to spin it anyway you want to.

I have to wonder why it bothers you so much, you’ve brought it up more than once, about the timing of, the “when”, individuals arrive at Church. Why would that be any concern of yours?

Stop judging others and judge yourself only, if you Must judge someone.

I hope mercy for you and those you have been judging.

Monica

PS - you have made my short “ignore list”

 

[chrisb]

Chrisb,

It is presumption on your part. Try to spin it anyway you want to.

When one quotes what they have previously written it can’t be ‘spin’…

I have to wonder why it bothers you so much, you’ve brought it up more than once, about the timing of, the “when”, individuals arrive at Church. Why would that be any concern of yours?

Where else have I spoken about ‘when’ individuals arrive at ‘Temple’?

Stop judging others and judge yourself only, if you Must judge someone.

We will know them by their fruit… how do ‘you’ do that without judging?

I hope mercy for you and those you have been judging.

Grace and Peace to you as well.

PS - you have made my short “ignore list”

 

[Cecilianus]

When one quotes what they have previously written it can’t be ‘spin’…

Where else have I spoken about ‘when’ individuals arrive at ‘Temple’?

We will know them by their fruit… how do ‘you’ do that without judging?

Grace and Peace to you as well.

Is there any point in bickering - if you don’t have anything to disagree about? Especially since you are both traditionalist, orthodox Christians in a time when such specimens are few and far between. (Any Greek Orthodox is a traditionalist by post-Vatican II standards, and I’m assuming that chrisb is a traditionalist in the usual sense of the term - as am I - by his signature. And the only difference of faith between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church is the pope, and even then many Orthodox theologians - Soloviev, Abbot Mekhitar, St. George the Hagiorite, St. Maximos the Confessor, St. Theodore Studites, St. Basil the Great, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Ephrem of Syria, Tertullian, St. Sava of Serbia - have argued that papal supremacy is a fundamental part of the Orthodox faith; De Maistre quotes Russian Orthodox prayers which assert papal primacy.)

Can we judge people by their exterior religiosity? No. Some people can’t stand for that long, simply for physical reasons. My mother can’t. So when someone sits down during Liturgy, I assume it’s because they need to. (Same way as when a family with two children - like the one I came from - walks into a Tridentine Mass, I don’t automatically assume like some people do that the parents were using birth control. Mine weren’t.)

Is it better to show up on time for Liturgy and stand through the whole thing, than not to? Of course.

As as side note, maybe Orthodox liturgies are longer than Byzantine Catholic ones - although if they are, I’ve asked on other forums here for someone to explain to me the difference - but at my Ukrainian Catholic Church I’ve never seen anyone walk in late - and at least in Father’s opinion during his homilies lately, it isn’t because his congregation is particularly pious. (Our Liturgy is usually an hour and a half to an hour and forty minutes, sometimes two hours.)

Dzheremi, do you know what made the Mass you went to in Mexico so much longer? I’ve never been to a Novus Ordo Mass longer than an hour, or a Tridentine Mass longer than an hour and a half - though it’s really encouraging to hear that it can be done. (At one point in my life I got really sick of 20-minute Sunday Masses, which was really quite a feat since at least 10 minutes of it was ad-libbed outside the rubrics.)

 

[Mickey]

Most Orthodox, that I know, don’t even show up till well into the actual Liturgy and aren’t present at most of the parishes Vespers, Great Vespers, Vigils, etc. From my experience there seems to be a ‘core’ in each Parish who attend these but the vast majority don’t.

Is this a polemical statement?

I see too many Orthodox who pridefully point this out of their own tradition

Are you accusing people of the passion of pride?

Within Orthodoxy I see a trend with outward shows of devotion being assumed to be a measure of inward holiness but I’ve been among Orthodox outside of their Divine Liturgy and I don’t necessarily see the fruit of a life in pursuit of virtue anymore than any other tradition.

You are becoming very judgemental. Why have you begun denigrating Holy Orthodoxy?

 

[Mickey]

So an elderly gentleman who can’t attend long services is less holy than someone who attends a very long service? Sounds like the Pharisees… having a outward show of religion but were hypocrites because they did not led holy lives.

If you want to see holiness, see it within the Virtue of one another not in the lengths of this prayer or that Liturgy or even the length of this fast or the amounts of that Alms-giving.

And you are not one to dictate what people need. Some people need to be in Church for all the services. Some people need the prayers of the Church. Some people need to participate in all of the “outward signs” that the Church has to offer. The Church offers us many tools to deepen our faith–this includes the “long” services and the Sacraments and the lighting of candles etc. You are not a reader of hearts. How dare you indicate that people attend the services out of pharisaical hypocracy.

You are treading on very thin ice my friend.

 

[Mickey]

I was only using an illustration to illuminate the problem of the presumption that some hold.

You should not presume to know the problem of presumption that some hold.

 

[Mickey]

Stop judging others and judge yourself only, if you Must judge someone.

Indeed!

 

[chrisb]

Is this a polemical statement?

Making an observation from my own personal encounters is not polemical.

Are you accusing people of the passion of pride?

I am making an observation of Orthodox individuals I have met and their attitudes towards others Liturgies and practices.

You are becoming very judgemental. Why have you begun denigrating Holy Orthodoxy?

So to you and SingleMomMonica it is an ‘impossibility’ for an individual Orthodox to be prideful about their ‘new’ religion and that ‘intemperate’ zeal is simply not possible?

For me this is my case and point… that there is a problem. You nor SingleMomMonica can’t separate the personal character flaws of individual Orthodox from Holy Orthodoxy itself. Why?

 

[chrisb]

You should not presume to know the problem of presumption that some hold.

Isn’t it a presumption to presume I have been presumptuous? Aren’t you judging when you assume I’m being Judgmental and calling me into question on encounters that I’ve personally had with Orthodox individuals? It’s it presumptuous to think that no Orthodox can be prideful?

I get the feeling you both are exercising a double standard.

 

[dvdjs]

Can we get some help on this thread?

While this dormant thread was resurrected - with no additional comment at all by SMM is a mystery.

Chrisb expressed a ***hope ***that length of liturgy were not so often conflated with greater holiness and devotion, and made a number of personal observations related to that point.

He was then treated to a spate of presumption about his supposed presumptuousness and judgment of his supposed judgmentalism. Yes indeed, beam and splinter for anyone with ears to hear.

His observations, btw, are uncontested by reasonable Orthodox. For example, from Frederica Matthews-Greene

… there is no point at which everyone is sitting quietly in a pew waiting for the entrance hymn to start, glancing at their watches approaching 9:30 [announced time of liturgy]. Orthodox worshippers arrive at any point from the beginning of Matins through the early part of the Liturgy, a span of well over an hour. … Of course, there is still no good excuse for showing up after 9:30, but punctuality is unfortunately one of the few virtues many Orthodox lack.

Ooooh, how very presumptuous and judgmental of her.

 

[Mickey]

You nor SingleMomMonica can’t separate the personal character flaws of individual Orthodox from Holy Orthodoxy itself.

You are very good at pointing out people’s personal character flaws. You should take Monica’s advice and point the finger at yourself.

 

[Mickey]

Isn’t it a presumption to presume I have been presumptuous?

You can play your little word games, but passing judgement and then calling it an observation, is a big time cop out.

 

[Mickey]

His observations, btw, are uncontested by reasonable Orthodox.

LOL! There we go again with the observation. It is no one’s business what time anyone shows up for Divine Liturgy (or Latin Mass).

No…not even Frederika.

 

[chrisb]

You can play your little word games, but passing judgement and then calling it an observation, is a big time cop out.

Mickey,

If someone gloats over their 3 hour Liturgy and call the Catholic Liturgy a ‘paltry’ affair I call that person ‘spiritual prideful’. You guys can think that Orthodox are beyond this but it happened. I feel very comfortable in saying that is a prideful act of a person not humble. You can say that such is being judgmental but I find that ridiculous.