A
aimee
Guest
Thanks Michael…Tract is 
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C
Church_Militant
Guest
Since heretics and schismatics will go into eternal perdition unless they convert to the Catholic Church, shouldn’t you at least “seek” to convert them? Is it only “radical traditionalists”, as you wrote, who are charitable enough to seek to save the souls of all people, including heretics? Is this 2000 year old practice of seeking the conversion of heretics and schismatics now forbidden, or at least taboo?I can’t tell from the “charity” that I have encountered or witnessed in your posts and many others that hold your beliefs.
Take it up with His Holiness. When he changes the catechism, then I’ll get in line. Until then…write your own tracts, and make sure that your own life reflects the person of Our Lord in all that you say and do.
Pax tecum,
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Church Militant:
I don’t think that the Catechism is not infallible. However, even if you think it is, you must be able to reconcile this belief with all of the previous infallible statements like the one USMC cited. Also, I don’t think you have the pastoral responsibility to make a judgment on whether or not USMC is reflecting Our Lord in what he says and does. But from what I’ve read, he does just that. Jesus said that there’s no way but His and those that don’t listen to His Church are to be considered like heathens. I’ll take God’s word for it (as well as the writings of the Fathers and saints for the past 2000 years) rather than be overconcerned with our modern society’s sensitivity to “offending people” and “tolerance”!
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Church_Militant
Guest
Yeah… I’ve seen your website Jon…I don’t think that the Catechism is not infallible. However, even if you think it is, you must be able to reconcile this belief with all of the previous infallible statements like the one USMC cited. Also, I don’t think you have the pastoral responsibility to make a judgment on whether or not USMC is reflecting Our Lord in what he says and does. But from what I’ve read, he does just that. Jesus said that there’s no way but His and those that don’t listen to His Church are to be considered like heathens. I’ll take God’s word for it (as well as the writings of the Fathers and saints for the past 2000 years) rather than be overconcerned with our modern society’s sensitivity to “offending people” and “tolerance”!
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Church Militant:
:tiphat: 
Good, I’m glad.
:tiphat:
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Haha! I meant: “I don’t think that the Catechism is infallible.”
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aimee
Guest
Church Militant:
I read some of the above posts…
I think we can provide the info for people to convert but its the Holy Spirit that is responsible for conversion.
I read some of the above posts…I think we can provide the info for people to convert but its the Holy Spirit that is responsible for conversion.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
aimee said:
I think we can provide the info for people to convert but its the Holy Spirit that is responsible for conversion.
I couldn’t agree more.
K
kryogenix
Guest
Maybe you can ask for a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Okay (and I’m not at all sure how I reconcile the statements of the Catechism on our relationship with our seperated brethren with prior papal statements, though I’ve been accustomed to saying that it further explicates and clarifies what’s gone before, vis a vis material heresy vs. formal, etc.), but, the salvation of schismatics and heretics aside for a moment, this IS what HH Pope John Paul II said when he promulgated the Catechism:
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion."
He addressed the whole Church, he proclaimed it a “sure” norm for teaching the faith, and he invoked the authority of his apostolic office. I think the Catechism is infallible, but then I also don’t think it conflicts with prior statements (because if it is infallible, it can’t). Also, that starts to beg the question of Church authority: if you cannot trust the Catechism promulgated for the universal Church, what then can we trust? Prior papal teaching? This IS papal teaching.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
If the Catechism was infallible, then why the need for revisions and a second edition? That implies that something needed to be fixed. You don’t fix things unless they’re broke (in error). If the Catechism was in error, then it’s fallible. That’s my line of reasoning, but I’m not really convinced either way. Feel free to try and win me over.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Translation errors? We see that in the Mass, don’t we (or so I’m told). Infallibility doesn’t cover things that, inasmuch as it doesn’t involve faith and morals. Clarification? Explication? I mean, Domine Jesus had to be issued to *clarify *meaning. Does that mean that it negates what went before it (the Catechism) or simply explains what it means or doesn’t mean? I have no problem with the notion of the Church doing this, I don’t think infallibility collapses as a result.
PS: What’s that Irish music you have on your site, JSmitty? Beautiful!
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Here’s a good article I found on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus:
web.archive.org/web/20040218182856/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ232.HTM
The song is called “The Blood of Cu Chulainn” by Mychael & Jeff Danna and it’s from the Boondock Saints movie. If you have AIM, I can send you the mp3.
My screenname on there is also JSmitty2005.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Kiddo, I’m so tech-stupid, I could have it and I wouldn’t know it! BUT…you say the movie is Boondock Saints? I like it well enough, I’d buy the soundtrack.Here’s a good article I found on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus:
web.archive.org/web/20040218182856/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ232.HTM
The song is called “The Blood of Cu Chulainn” by Mychael & Jeff Danna and it’s from the Boondock Saints movie. If you have AIM, I can send you the mp3.
I must, as any obedient Catholic must, give de fide assent to EENS…and so I do. That doesn’t mean that I despair of the salvation for my dead family members who were faithful Protestants (I am working on my mother). My grandfather (about to turn 89) will, however, never convert…devout Baptist deacon and too suspicious of the Church. I can only hope that he is, indeed, invinicbly ignorant, if the hard line view is the only acceptable interpretation of EENS. He has lived a very committed Christian life, insofar as he knew how. In the end, Jesus knows who He saves and who He doesn’t. His judgement is true.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Actually, I don’t know if there is a soundtrack. Even if there is, the other songs on it are nothing like this one. I know that there is a band called the Boodock Saints, though, so don’t accidentally buy that. You can just go here and download it if you or anyone else wants it:
myspace.com/coolband123
It’s the last one. All you have to do is click “Download” and wait, and sometimes you’ll be waiting for a while! If it doesn’t work, try, try again. Let me know if it works or not. Finally, if you like this music, here’s the original album that it comes from. You’d probably enjoy this more than the soundtrack even if there is one.
amazon.com/gp/product/B000006050/qid=1140927733/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-3586286-9270254?s=music&v=glance&n=5174
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Thanks, J!
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
No prob
Sorry to the OP for the tangent. Forgive me.
I
Ignatius
Guest
Great insight. I had never seen that before.
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desire_the_end
Guest
Clever tract, CM. 
Unfortunately, there is a hyper-conservative view going around that excludes non-Catholics from being Christians. The only schismatics were…The schismatics. The Reformers. Even they didn’t mean to split the Body into different churches, but it happened.
Some people are born into Protestant Christianity and its all they know. Some people leave the Catholic Church because they are POORLY CATECHISED or have had unsatisfactory experiences at a local parish. The circumstances are endless. Those who are guilty of deliberately causing schism, and forming heresies as conspiracies are at fault. This is NOT a black and white issue.
Under his mercy,
Tony
Unfortunately, there is a hyper-conservative view going around that excludes non-Catholics from being Christians. The only schismatics were…The schismatics. The Reformers. Even they didn’t mean to split the Body into different churches, but it happened.
Some people are born into Protestant Christianity and its all they know. Some people leave the Catholic Church because they are POORLY CATECHISED or have had unsatisfactory experiences at a local parish. The circumstances are endless. Those who are guilty of deliberately causing schism, and forming heresies as conspiracies are at fault. This is NOT a black and white issue.
Under his mercy,
Tony
U
USMC
Guest
Not so JKirk. God’s grace can certainly change the heart of anyone - even your grandfather. Have confidence in God and do your best: that’s what God asks from you. God will reward you efforts and just maybe give your grandfather the grace he needs.
I look forward to hearing the story of the “miraculous conversion” of your grandfather. I will put him on my prayer list as well. But you have to promise to include my mother on yours.
If my mother was a Catholic she should most certainly be a saint. She is extremely good on the natural level. The only problem is that she is too indifferent in her religious thinking, but she is showing signs of coming around very gradually. Keep my mother in your prayers and I will keep your grandfather in mine.
God Bless
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