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jeffrey_erwin
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Sorry, Lily, but Mr. GEddie’s post does not make sense.
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jeffrey_erwin
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Actually, “the issue of dating the cloth” has been overcome, and not by science, but by history. Prof. Wilson along with Ms. Frale and others have documented the Shroud’s history back to at least the year 544 A.D. when it was found hidden in the vaults of the West Gate of the ancient city of Edessa. Anyone who insists on dismissing all of this excellent research just doesn’t want to believe that the Shroud is real.
Once the Shroud’s history has been established, understanding the spurious C-14 dating becomes a routine exercise in picking the most likely cause of that aberration. Several explanations have been proposed involving some kind of contamination of the 1988 sample. After further investigation, these theories have all been found to be invalid, and that’s a wonderful thing because it leaves only the Historically Consistent Hypothesis as a possibility.
When our Lord’s body disappeared into another dimension (read “resurrected”) it gave off a small amount of particle radiation (thermal protons and neutrons.) The proton radiation formed the Divine Image while the neutron radiation had a preservative effect on the linen as well as causing some of the nitrogen in that linen to be converted into C-14.
Of course the atheists in this world throw up their hands at hearing about the Historically Consistent Hypothesis, but we are not atheists. It should be easy for any believer to accept, and, for the life of me, I can’t understand why it isn’t.
As noted in Mr. Antonacci’s new book “Test the Shroud,”(2015) the thermal neutron radiation caused some of the calcium and chlorine in the Shroud’s linen to transform into the radioactive isotopes Ca-41 and Cl-36. These have very long half-lives. Mr. Antonacci states that discovering their presence and quantity can prove the Shroud was irradiated and also can show when that event happened.
When the research that has been proposed by Mr. Antonacci has been completed, it will prove that the Holy Shroud of Turin not only dates to the 1st Century but also that it was irradiated at that time by thermal protons and neutrons that originated from the body that lay within it. At that time our Holy Catholic Church will final declare that the Holy Shroud is, indeed, authentic.
And I might add that our Holy Shroud has impacted my own faith as well as that of many others. I think that all here would agree that faith leads to salvation.
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GEddie
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In what way did I not make sense?
In the absence of DNA, blood-typing or similar biological body-typing technology (none of which we have for our LORD, as such tests have existed only since the mid or late 1900s), there is just no way to match an artifact of uncertain provenance to anybody.
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GEddie
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For what it is worth, Jeff, I do believe in the Shroud. I still have to admit that it cannot be scientifically proven to have been around our LORD. The Christus Pantocrator, etc, while wonderful, do not constitute scientific proof.
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jeffrey_erwin
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I apologise if I insinuated that you did not think that the Shroud was authentic. I must have had a different poster in mind.
Tests for various radioactive elements (C-14, Ca-41, Ca-46) that were created or increased in differing amounts depending on their location on the Shroud can prove that the neutron radiation took place in the 1st Century and that the source of that radiation was the body that was wrapped in the Shroud. Given all of the other medical, scientific, and historical facts that we now know about the Holy Shroud, Mr. Antonacci believes that it will then be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that our Holy Shroud is in fact the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.
I recommend his new book, “Test The Shroud (At the Atomic and Molecular Levels)”(2015).
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thistle
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Nothing you have said in the post proves anything. Its just emotion and speculation.
As to your other comment if anyone NEEDS to believe in a relic then their faith must be pretty weak. Even Pope Benedict said that, also for private revelations.
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jeffrey_erwin
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Wilson’s, Frales, Gucsin’s, & Antonacci’s historical investigations are based on years of hard work. As I said before, anyone that doesn’t conclude that the Shroud of Turin dates back to at least the year 544 A.D. when it was discovered hidden in the vaults of the West Gate of the city of Edessa just doesn’t (for whatever reason) want to believe the our Lord’s Holy Shroud could be real. And I think that is where the “emotion” lies, not with the researchers.
Have you read any of the books I mentioned about the Shroud? Or any at all?
BTW, we all are of “weak faith:”
Were your faith the size of a mustard seed you could say to this mulberry tree, “Be uprooted and planted in the sea,” and it would obey you.
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thistle
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Let me say this again. There is no scientific evidence that dates the Shroud back beyond the Middle Ages. Everything you have put forward is speculation and wishing. It doesn’t matter how many books, articles, websites or dvd’s come out about the Shroud.
No we are not all weak of faith. My faith is strong. I do not need to believe in any relics or private revelations to strengthen it. Catholics can go their entire lives not believing in any of these things and be no less Catholic and it does not negatively impact their faith or chance of salvation.
You are like a Protestant quoting a Bible verse out of context.
For your information from D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:
Ver. 19. If you have faith as a grain of mustard-seed. Christ insinuates to his apostles, as if they had not yet faith enough to work great miracles, which require a firm faith joined with a lively confidence in God. The mustard-seed is brought in with an allusion to its hot and active qualities. (Witham) — That is, a perfect faith; which, in its properties and its fruits, resembles the grain of mustard-seed in the parable. (Chap. xii.[xiii.?] 31.) (Challoner) — By faith is here understood, not that virtue by which we assent to all things that are to be believed of Christ, the first, of the theological virtues, in which the apostles were not deficient, but that confidence in the power and goodness of God, that he will on such an occasion exert these, his attributes, in favour of the supplicant. To have a true faith of this kind, and free from all presumption, is a great and high privilege, which the Holy Ghost breathes into such only as he pleases. (Jansenius) — Examples of this efficacious faith are given by St. Paul. (Hebrews chap. ii.[xi.?]) St. Gregory of Neo-Cæsarea is also related, by Eusebius and Ven. Bede, to have removed by the efficacy of his faith a rock, which obstructed the building of a church; thus literally fulfilling the promise of Jesus Christ. (Tirinus) — The faith of the apostles, especially of those that had not been present at the transfiguration, was not perfect and complete in all its parts, till after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, and the descent of the Holy Ghost. (Haydock) — St. Jerome understands by mountains, things the most difficult to be effected.
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jeffrey_erwin
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Actually, there is a great deal of scientific evidence for a 1st Century origin to that linen cloth. The 1988 carbon dating is the only anomaly, and. according to the Historically Consistent Hypothesis, a spurious dating is exactly what should be expected.
You didn’t answer my question about what books you have read about the Shroud.
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thistle
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Have I read every book, watched every dvd, read every article about the Shroud. Of course not. There is no need.
First, there is NO SCIENTIFIC evidence dating the Shroud back 2000 years.
Second, even if there were (which there is not) the Shroud can NEVER be proven to be the actual burial cloth of Christ. Unless you were there with a camcorder at the moment of the Resurrection there will never be definitive proof.
Third, the Church NEVER declares ancient relics to be authentic.
Also, I repeat that anyone who needs something like this for their faith must have a pretty weak faith.
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fred_conty
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Don’t we have authentic pieces of the wood of the true Cross? How do we know that they are authentic? I thought the church decided that they were. I don’t know but just asking because St Helen was the one who found the true cross. I believe we have a Mass celebration in her honor and one in honor of the true cross. Couldnt it be that one day we may have the same for the Shroud?
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jeffrey_erwin
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I disagree. For one thing, there is the cloth itself which was not made in the middle ages as well as the sewing of the side piece. Another is the fact that the image on the cloth is not reproducible by any known method, present or past. The historical evidence should not be discounted either.
I didn’t ask if you had read every book about the Shroud, I only asked you to cite one.
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GEddie
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Even with that, no, the Church does not claim them to be authentic. All it has us a broken provenance going back to the 400s (Saint Helena) although still better than the shroud.
None of the physical bits and pieces scattered around Europe, whether putative fragments of the Cross or fragments of human bone from the bodies of ancient saints, are crucial to faith. The only solid object that is, is our LORD’s body.
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jeffrey_erwin
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It may be of interest to note that of the relics that St. Helena found in the Tomb, the burial linen was not among them.
But this linen is the only artifact of the Passion to be mentioned in the Gospels after that happened.
But this linen is the only artifact of the Passion to be mentioned in the Gospels after that happened.
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Maddie26
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I had never heard this story interpreted quite this way before. I only heard the mustard seed described as “small” rather than hot. Isn’t it wonderful the riches to be found in the Bible! I wish I were of strong faith, though, which I must not be since I have never moved a mountain or made a tree uproot itself. It would make gardening and landscaping a lot easier and cheaper.
The Church is kind. It allows us to strengthen our weak faith. It allows us to revere relics and look at icons and hear music and taste the greatest strengthener of all: the Body and Blood of Our Lord.
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GEddie
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I don’t think that by hot is meant warm to the touch, but rather by taste. Mustard is a spice, after all.
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jeffrey_erwin
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**TEST THE SHROUD, **Antonacci (2015):
When the results from the atomic testing performed on samples from the Shroud linen cloth, its blood marks, its charred material (and on limestone from the reputed tomb(s) of the historical Jesus) were combined with all the results from the previous investigations, this extensive and objective evidence could prove that:
When the results from the atomic testing performed on samples from the Shroud linen cloth, its blood marks, its charred material (and on limestone from the reputed tomb(s) of the historical Jesus) were combined with all the results from the previous investigations, this extensive and objective evidence could prove that:
- the entire Shroud was irradiated with particle radiation;
- the Shroud’s radiocarbon dating is erroneous;
- the amount of particle radiation each part received;
- the Shroud is from the 1st century;
5 the radiating event happened in the 1st century; - the source of the radiation was the length, width, and depth of the dead body wrapped within it;
- all of the events that occurred to the man happened in the 1st century;
- the events occurred in Jerusalem;
- under all of the surrounding circumstances described in the Gospels; and
- this man was the historical Jesus Christ.
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thistle
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The Church has NOT declared it to be authentic. I don’t know why I have to keep repeating this.
The reason, as I have said, is that the Church cannot be 100% sure when it comes to ANCIENT relics so it does not authenticate them.
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thistle
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I repeat. There is no scientific evidence that overcomes the carbon dating which was done. Everything else is speculation, opinion, and emotion.
Do you actually listen to yourself. The Church has not declared it to be authentic but you have. What do you know better than the Church??
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tryphon
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