Prior to 250 AD or so, the 4 Gospels were anonymous and later affixed by tradition

[Publisher]

Thanks for your answer. And as an orthodox Catholic, I also believe and accept salvation by grace alone. Also as an orthodox Catholic, I’d be remiss if I didn’t throw just one more bingo chip onto the card table. I believe grace begins with baptism and is essential to the Christian life. I know at the same time that many faith traditions don’t believe that the outward expression of any sacrament is necessary for the inward infusion of God’s grace. While baptism may be an avenue for grace, it’s not an essential one. Here, both beliefs can’t be right. Either “Peter” in 1Peter 3:21 in saying “baptism now saves you,” really does mean baptism saves you, or it doesn’t mean that (in which case he really should have rephrased that to make it more clear that the text doesn’t mean what it actually says–smiley face again). The point that I’m driving at is that one of these beliefs is in error. Either the Catholic who believes in baptism is wrong, and essential grace isn’t infused through the sacrament, or the Evangelical is wrong by not being baptized when it is. And if grace matters, then the answer to the above question is important to all of us. So I’d invite you again to look at the Catholic Church, not because I believe it’s the truth, even though it’s obvious that I do, but because it may be the truth in spite of me or my personal opinions, and to not reject it out of hand as I think you do. I’d also invite you because we could use another brother like you. I know that last line is as subjective as it gets–but there it is. God Bless.

Friend,

Thank you for your kind response. I have looked at the Catholic church…and have found it “lacking”…I reject it’s teachings because it seeks to set another human between me and God. I do not need a “priest” to perform any ritual for or on my behalf to receive the unmerited grace and mercy of God. I need no “priest” to “confect” any ritual to be in Communion with the Father. I am able to approach the Throne of Grace with boldness through Christ…I need no one to be 'in persona christi" for me when I have Christ Himself Truly Present with me.

Here is a link which I found very good…it asks the question “What do Quakers offer at the ecumenical table.” edengrace.org/sacraments.htm

I am particularly drawn to a couple lines in the article…

“Yet I would plead that our witness deserves more than a footnote — we hold it in trust on your behalf. It deserves to be heard, and its implications carefully considered, by all the churches.”

“Our position is that Christian faith does not require outward sacramental practice. Rather, Christian faith requires a spiritual experience of sacramental reality”

If you find grace and peace in the teachings of the Catholic church…I rejoice with you. I am in Good Hands among Friends.

 

[StTommyMore]

Thank you for your kind response. I have looked at the Catholic church…and have found it “lacking”…I reject it’s teachings because it seeks to set another human between me and God. I do not need a “priest” to perform any ritual for or on my behalf to receive the unmerited grace and mercy of God. I need no “priest” to “confect” any ritual to be in Communion with the Father. I am able to approach the Throne of Grace with boldness through Christ…I need no one to be 'in persona christi" for me when I have Christ Himself Truly Present with me.

It is easy to see why you believe this. This heresy, that there is no need for a ministerial priesthood, is taken from a misinterpretation of Scripture. The universal priesthood of all believers does not abrogate the need for an ordained priesthood. When Pope St. Peter, in his first encyclical (commonly referred to as 1 Peter), described the Church as “a royal priesthood,” he was quoting Exodus, and in doing so, identifying the Church as taking the place of Israel, the firstborn among nations. Israel was a royal priesthood, but still had an ordained priesthood. One could try tho argue that the ordained priesthood did not come into being until the Golden Calf episode, which chronologically occurs later than the “royal priesthood” identification. This statement is partially true. The Levitical priesthood did come later, but there was still an ordained priesthood before this, as the eldest sons were to be the ordained priests. Even though Israel was a priestly nation (as the firstborn among nations) it still had an ordained clergy. This prooftext from 1 Peter is not enough to say that there is no ministerial priesthood. More evidence is required.

 

[StTommyMore]

It was Theodosius in 380 when he issued his edict De Fide Catholica declaring Catholic Christianty as the State Religion of the Roman Empire.
It was Constatine in 313 that wanted to unite the Roman Empire under a “universal” church which began the RCC.

Actually the Church began at Pentecost. It was Eucharistic, and it was Liturgical.

 

[Publisher]

It is easy to see why you believe this. This heresy, that there is no need for a ministerial priesthood, is taken from a misinterpretation of Scripture. The universal priesthood of all believers does not abrogate the need for an ordained priesthood. When Pope St. Peter, in his first encyclical (commonly referred to as 1 Peter), described the Church as “a royal priesthood,” he was quoting Exodus, and in doing so, identifying the Church as taking the place of Israel, the firstborn among nations. Israel was a royal priesthood, but still had an ordained priesthood. One could try tho argue that the ordained priesthood did not come into being until the Golden Calf episode, which chronologically occurs later than the “royal priesthood” identification. This statement is partially true. The Levitical priesthood did come later, but there was still an ordained priesthood before this, as the eldest sons were to be the ordained priests. Even though Israel was a priestly nation (as the firstborn among nations) it still had an ordained clergy. This prooftext from 1 Peter is not enough to say that there is no ministerial priesthood. More evidence is required.

I share in the Priesthood of Christ…since I am a member of this 'Holy Nation of Royal Priests" the “priesthood of believers” and have a High Priest to go to…I need no other priest.

 

[StTommyMore]

I share in the Priesthood of Christ…since I am a member of this 'Holy Nation of Royal Priests" the “priesthood of believers” and have a High Priest to go to…I need no other priest.

As were all of Israel, yet an ordained priesthood was still necessary, as evidenced by Korah.

 

[Publisher]

As were all of Israel, yet an ordained priesthood was still necessary, as evidenced by Korah.

I have a Priest I go to…I need no other.

 

[StTommyMore]

I have a Priest I go to…I need no other.

He is the Great High Priest, but that dies nit relegate all other priests unnecessary. You can only say the ministerial priesthood is unnecessary by removing isolated passages out of context.

 

[Publisher]

He is the Great High Priest, but that dies nit relegate all other priests unnecessary. You can only say the ministerial priesthood is unnecessary by removing isolated passages out of context.

I need no one to stand in the stead of Christ for me when I have Christ Himself Truly Present and True Teacher and Guide. I find Him completely adequate…why would I need to exhange the Reality for a shadow?

 

[StTommyMore]

I need no one to stand in the stead of Christ for me when I have Christ Himself Truly Present and True Teacher and Guide.

Quakers are Sola Scriptura, are they not? Perhaps it is time you actually supported your assertions with teachings from the Scriptures, instead of making unsupported assertions.

 

[Publisher]

Quakers are Sola Scriptura, are they not? Perhaps it is time you actually supported your assertions with teachings from the Scriptures, instead of making unsupported assertions.

No, Quakers are not “sola scriptura”. Friends seek to experience the Living Presence in our lives and corporate worship. “Christ is present among His People to teach them Himself”.

We search scripture…but scripture is a “secondary” authority only…God’s Presence in our Midst as we corporatly seek His will is our primary Source…which has more “authority”…the 'inspired" or the Inspirer?

 

[StTommyMore]

No, Quakers are not “sola scriptura”. Friends seek to experience the Living Presence in our lives and corporate worship. “Christ is present among His People to teach them Himself”.

We search scripture…but scripture is a “secondary” authority only…God’s Presence in our Midst as we corporatly seek His will is our primary Source…which has more “authority”…the 'inspired" or the Inspirer?

In other words, believe what you want, and say God inspired you. This is how heresies are born.

 

[simspt]

In other words, believe what you want, and say God inspired you. This is how heresies are born.

I dont want to put words into Pubs mouth but many of the scholars that have been mentioned by Pub (again i dont know if this is Pub belief) do not view the canonical writings to be more valid than many of the non-canonical writings. A common thesis among them is that the CC imposed its authority and labeled as heretics those who they disagreed with. Therefore this would be antithetical to sola scripura advocates.

 

[Publisher]

In other words, believe what you want, and say God inspired you. This is how heresies are born.

Friends do not “believe what they want”…that is a “Catholic” caricature. Friends seek to follow the Risen Christ…we seek to understand the Mind and Will of God as He is experienced in our midst. Each of us is to discerne the Will and Mind of God not only individually, born out in how we act in this world…how we treat others…how we seek to serve…but corporately as a body of believers to see the face of Jesus in those around us.

Doctrines and dogmas and creeds are of little use to us if they do not promote and cause deep internal change in individual lives. The Living Reality we share with each other and experience as individuals is our first and primary “authority”…we do not serve a “God of the past”…but a “God of the Present” who is among us to each us Himself.

For Friends, this God is more concerned with the “single lost sheep”…or the “least of these” than He is with how many candles to place on an alter of wood or stone…or what words are spoken when a person is dunked or sprinkled with water…if those things enhance your walk with Christ and brings into focus His image in “the least of these”…wonderful…for Friends…these things detract from our calling as the People of God.

 

[StTommyMore]

Friends do not “believe what they want”…that is a “Catholic” caricature. Friends seek to follow the Risen Christ…we seek to understand the Mind and Will of God as He is experienced in our midst. Each of us is to discerne the Will and Mind of God not only individually, born out in how we act in this world…how we treat others…how we seek to serve…but corporately as a body of believers to see the face of Jesus in those around us.

Doctrines and dogmas and creeds are of little use to us if they do not promote and cause deep internal change in individual lives. The Living Reality we share with each other and experience as individuals is our first and primary “authority”…we do not serve a “God of the past”…but a “God of the Present” who is among us to each us Himself.

For Friends, this God is more concerned with the “single lost sheep”…or the “least of these” than He is with how many candles to place on an alter of wood or stone…or what words are spoken when a person is dunked or sprinkled with water…if those things enhance your walk with Christ and brings into focus His image in “the least of these”…wonderful…for Friends…these things detract from our calling as the People of God.

In other words, Jesus Christ instituted no sacraments, and withholds no signs of His grace, and as a result left us to figure things out on our own?

 

[Publisher]

In other words, Jesus Christ instituted no sacraments, and withholds no signs of His grace, and as a result left us to figure things out on our own?

Life is a sacrament…in every aspect of our lives we have the opportunity to receive the astounding grace of God and experience His Presence in the daily of our lives.

"We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means…

In other words, we call on the other churches to examine whether, in fact, God’s grace has been manifest in the Society of Friends, and if so, whether this might require rethinking the role of sacraments in the operation of grace. Of course, this also places a high demand on Quakers, to live up to the witness we proclaim, and to be willing to confess when we don’t. Ultimately, it is the integrity of life which preaches, not the proclamation with words."

We are not lef “on our own”…we have a Present Teacher to Guide us.

If you have found grace in the sacraments offered by your faith tradition…I raise my voice with you in the praise to God for His love and grace…but for me…such rites and rituals have no deep impact…I have found them “shadows” of a Greater Reality of sacramental living…I seek this avenue to understand my place in this world.

 

[StTommyMore]

Life is a sacrament…in every aspect of our lives we have the opportunity to receive the astounding grace of God and experience His Presence in the daily of our lives.

"We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means…

In other words, we call on the other churches to examine whether, in fact, God’s grace has been manifest in the Society of Friends, and if so, whether this might require rethinking the role of sacraments in the operation of grace. Of course, this also places a high demand on Quakers, to live up to the witness we proclaim, and to be willing to confess when we don’t. Ultimately, it is the integrity of life which preaches, not the proclamation with words."

We are not lef “on our own”…we have a Present Teacher to Guide us.

If you have found grace in the sacraments offered by your faith tradition…I raise my voice with you in the praise to God for His love and grace…but for me…such rites and rituals have no deep impact…I have found them “shadows” of a Greater Reality of sacramental living…I seek this avenue to understand my place in this world.

Humanity needs ritual. It is a cultural universal. Even in atheistic societies, they had rituals to replace those that were destroyed. To deny the need of ritual is to deny one of the very things that makes us human and distinguishes us form animals.

 

[Publisher]

Humanity needs ritual. It is a cultural universal. Even in atheistic societies, they had rituals to replace those that were destroyed. To deny the need of ritual is to deny one of the very things that makes us human and distinguishes us form animals.

Your statement hasn’t been born out among those whom the world calls Quakers.

 

[Erich]

Your statement hasn’t been born out among those whom the world calls Quakers.

I’ll grant that there aren’t many, but googling “quaker rituals”] turns up 39 results, and googling “quaker procedures”] turns up another 182 results… so there certainly appears to be some need for ritual among those whom the world calls Quakers.

 

[Layman]

Your statement hasn’t been born out among those whom the world calls Quakers.

Just guessing but isn’t one of the fundamental points of being a Quaker is that you don’t have rituals?

 

[Publisher]

Just guessing but isn’t one of the fundamental points of being a Quaker is that you don’t have rituals?

That’s correct…no rituals, rites, liturgy…except for the “liturgy of Silence”, need bar the way to our Immanuel…“God With Us”. No one should…or can…stand in the place of Christ…Friends accept the deep significance of the term “priesthood of all believers”…we share in His Priesthood…we need no other Priest to approach God and receive His Fullness of grace, mercy and love. “Behold what love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the children of God.”