Prison is not a punishment... it is a choice!?

[Serious]

Rot. It is so sacred and important to us, being a gift of God, that devout Catholics wish to protect it even from contraception before it is conceived, as well as abortion in the womb, murder during life and euthanasia as it nears its end. We believe at least as firmly as atheists in its inherent worth.

And that is the thing which is illogical and irrational. None of those you mention have anything to do with inherent worth. They are to be avoided, because you believe that those are “mortal” sins, and committing them can exclude you from heaven. The believers (if and when they are honest to themselves) readily acknowledge that the only importance of this life is to behave “well enough” to gain admittance to heaven.

 

[mwok]

No

We avoid artificial contraception because it defiles the sanctity of life.
Life is so sacred and precious to us because it is the greatest gift God gave us and must be protected at all costs.

 

[LilyM]

And that is the thing which is illogical and irrational. None of those you mention have anything to do with inherent worth. They are to be avoided, because you believe that those are “mortal” sins, and committing them can exclude you from heaven. The believers (if and when they are honest to themselves) readily acknowledge that the only importance of this life is to behave “well enough” to gain admittance to heaven.

It’s not an either-or proposition. Things can have BOTH an inherent worth AND additionally be valuable as created and beloved by God. Just like diamonds are valued because they are rare AND because they are tough AND because they are beautiful.

I look at a sunrise. My artistic sense appreciates the beauty of it’s colouring, my scientific sense appreciates the importance of the sun without which life could not exist on earth. And at the same time my religious sensibility praises God for creating such wonder. None of this has to do with fear or damnation - I certainly will not be damned for sleeping through the sunrise or anything!

Same with respect for life. Surely I can and do marvel and wonder at the development of a babe in the womb, or feel love, admiration and respect for those who are dying with grace and dignity after lives well-lived, and wish to see no harm done to them, from a sense of the intrinsic value of the unborn and the dying as well as a sense of the sacredness of life more generally, without it being at all about fear of damnation.

I mean as far as I know there is no moral injunction against squashing ants or killing toads. But I don’t go squashing every ant I see, or every toad, merely because there’s no threat of hellfire preventing me. I limit it severely - only ants that are after my food or toads that my dogs are about to eat (they’re poisonous). Why? Because I do respect life for its own sake, as well as for other motives. I doubt I’m unique in this.

 

[Serious]

It’s not an either-or proposition. Things can have BOTH an inherent worth AND additionally be valuable as created and beloved by God. Just like diamonds are valued because they are rare AND because they are tough AND because they are beautiful.

I look at a sunrise. My artistic sense appreciates the beauty of it’s colouring, my scientific sense appreciates the importance of the sun without which life could not exist on earth. And at the same time my religious sensibility praises God for creating such wonder. None of this has to do with fear or damnation - I certainly will not be damned for sleeping through the sunrise or anything!

Same with respect for life. Surely I can and do marvel and wonder at the development of a babe in the womb, or feel love, admiration and respect for those who are dying with grace and dignity after lives well-lived, and wish to see no harm done to them, from a sense of the intrinsic value of the unborn and the dying as well as a sense of the sacredness of life more generally, without it being at all about fear of damnation.

I mean as far as I know there is no moral injunction against squashing ants or killing toads. But I don’t go squashing every ant I see, or every toad, merely because there’s no threat of hellfire preventing me. I limit it severely - only ants that are after my food or toads that my dogs are about to eat (they’re poisonous). Why? Because I do respect life for its own sake, as well as for other motives. I doubt I’m unique in this.

Yep, this is called rationalizing.

 

[LilyM]

Yep, this is called rationalizing.

No, it’s called truth. You’re the one who rationalizes so much you can’t tell the difference

 

[Serious]

No, it’s called truth.

Truth? The truth is that for a believer the number one goal is to get into heaven. Everything else is irrelevant compared to that. Whether there is pleasure or pain here, all are said to be insignificant when compared to the supposed “eternal bliss”. When the topic is the problem of evil, one of the arguments is that “this existence does not matter”. Now you change the tune, and say that it does. There is no consistency.

You said that the “ego te absolvo…” is an empty phrase without full confession. If the person asserts that he confessed everything, and exercised perfect contrition, then the priest could perform the ultimate “help” and send him heavenward.

And there is another example. When a new child is born and has been baptized, he is in the state of being totally sin-less, even the stigma of the “original sin” is gone. That is the perfect time to kill the child. He is assured to go to heaven, and that is the greatest gift you can give him. Of course you sacrificed your own salvation, and that is the greatest possible sacrifice you could have made. So you should be rewarded with heaven as well… a nice win-win situation.

 

[mwok]

Truth? The truth is that for a believer the number one goal is to get into heaven. Everything else is irrelevant compared to that. Whether there is pleasure or pain here, all are said to be insignificant when compared to the supposed “eternal bliss”. When the topic is the problem of evil, one of the arguments is that “this existence does not matter”. Now you change the tune, and say that it does. There is no consistency.

You said that the “ego te absolvo…” is an empty phrase without full confession. If the person asserts that he confessed everything, and exercised perfect contrition, then the priest could perform the ultimate “help” and send him heavenward.

And there is another example. When a new child is born and has been baptized, he is in the state of being totally sin-less, even the stigma of the “original sin” is gone. That is the perfect time to kill the child. He is assured to go to heaven, and that is the greatest gift you can give him. Of course you sacrificed your own salvation, and that is the greatest possible sacrifice you could have made. So you should be rewarded with heaven as well… a nice win-win situation.

Wow! It looks like you found God’s one loophole! Do you hear yourself? Obviously the ultimate goal is not to get into heaven to experience eternal happiness for ourselves. Its to come face to face with the one who created us.

 

[John_Q_Sinner]

You quoted: “Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” That is only applicable to atheists. For believers it is a selfish act, an attempt to get to heaven ASAP, while preventing the other one to get to heaven at the time. For believers the comparable act would be to kill others when they leave the confessional booth, and as such they are “sinless” for a split of a second. That would be true love, since they would “offer up” their eternal salvation, not just this miserable existence in this vale of tears.

I believe you completely missed the point of :“greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends”. Christ gave His life for us because He loves us. My grandfather offered His life up to Christ for the very same reason: love. My grandfather never expected Heaven for doing this; I know because he a.) he never made the assumption he was going to Heaven, and b.) because he was thankful for what he got regardless of if there was or wasn’t a Heaven at the end of it all.