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Remnant1
Guest
The bible
John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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pablope
Guest
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Ad_Crucem
Guest
It would be better to post the entire context of this verse, as it mentions nothing about sitting down and reading a Bible and coming up with your own interpretation. Peter here is addressing the source of prophecy. In 1:20 he is stating that the prophecies in Scripture are not the result of personal or private will or motivation. We can tell this by his next statement, “For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
In modern terms, he is saying “The prophecies in Scripture did not come about by human will or invention, but came from the Holy Spirit.”
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cguerber
Guest
2 Peter 1:20 has nothing to do with how we interpret the Bible, or that we can’t. It states that the writers did not rely on their own interpretation. It’s easier to understand if you read the verse that follows it. The verses listed below are from the New American Bible.
Especially when you read it along with:
2Thes 2:15 - Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
And
1Tim 3:15 - But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church (ekklēsia) of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth
2 Peter 1:20-21 (NAB)
20 know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, 21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.
There is no place in the NT stating that we ‘common’ people can’t interpret the Word of God. On the contrary, most of the letters were written to entire assembly’s and were to be passed around. There is no mention of someone having to interpret them.
2 Corinthians 1:13
13 For we write you nothing but what you can read and understand, and I hope that you will understand completely.
2 Peter 3:16 (referencing Paul’s letters)
…In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
Now a short look at tradition…
2 thes 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
Is the ‘tradition’ spoken of here extra Biblical? The verse states that the ‘traditions’ were either an oral statement or by a letter. Did Paul orally teach something different than the Gospel? Look at the prior verse
2 Thes 2:14 To this end he has (also) called you through our gospel to possess the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It’s by Paul’s teaching or traditions of speaking the gospel that people were called. There is nothing extra Biblical involved. Remember, all the letters had not even been written yet. There had to be oral teachings. To say these traditions or oral statements were different then what is now written would be a stretch. I know of no proof they are different. By reading Galations 1:8-9 we see that the gospel was already ‘preached’ to them. It leaves no room for some sort of ‘living tradition’ that changes over time. There are numerous verses that state the people had received the gospel, there wasn’t more to come so to speak. I realize that the Roman Catholic Church makes you believe there is an on-going, living tradition. But I fail to understand where and how they come up with that. I spent 30 years in the Roman Catholic system and never understood it!
Galatians 1:8-9
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!
This clearly states that those people received the gospel fully. Nothing more to add.
Now on to the comments about ‘church’ in 1 Timothy 3:15…
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
Many times the word church gets used incorrectly. As stated, the Greek word used here is ἐκκλησία (ek-klay-see’-ah). Here is the definition:
G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see’-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
In short, ekklesia means an assembly of believers, or congregation etc. Also, church. The problem is that there is more than one definition of the word ‘church’. It can mean an assembly of believers or it can mean an institution and or building. We need to understand that using ‘church’ as a definition for ekklesia, we have to realize that it is the definition of ‘church’ which is an assembly, congregation, community of believers etc. Not the definition of church as an institution.
In 1 Timothy 3:15 it is the (congregation) of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. The use of the word ‘church’ here does not mean institution. (God is the pillar and foundation of truth).
I realize this won’t change a Roman Catholics views, but maybe spark curiosity. As in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test everything; retain what is good.
Blessings,
CG
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Nicea325
Guest
And do you believe the living Tradition ceased to exist with the compilation of the Bible?
Not exactly. No one is denying the Truth lies withy God. However, the church is the mystical body of Jesus (Eph 1:23) so why do non-Catholics separate the church from His Body?
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pablope
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Monergistic
Guest
Here’s what I have, starting in verse 19 so you get a complete sentence.
“And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
Does this forbid the private or personal interpretation of the Scriptures? No, but it is very common for Catholics to misuse this passage, and flagrantly so.
This is what it does say, and it pertains to the source of Scripture. Men who produce Scripture did not produce it all on their own through their own effort; the Holy Spirit is the source of Scripture and that makes Scripture unique.
This is what it implies. If you are producing something on the basis of your own efforts, your own intellect, your own development of doctrine, whatever you produce- however valuable- is not the same thing as Scripture and lacks some of its distinctive characteristics.
For the record, I will bear in mind that the things I write in this forum are not Scripture. I am not being carried along by the Holy Spirit in the way that’s described here- in fact, no one has been carried along thusly since John on Patmos.
Now as to what it does not say- it actually does not address how or in what manner someone ought to interpret Scripture and/or prophecy that is produced by a prophet. It does describe the difference between things that are Scripture and things that are not Scripture, but these verses do not comment on how a not-prophet ought to go about interpreting the prophetic word or any prophecy of Scripture.
Again, this is a common Catholic misconception, but it’s wrong. It’s right there, if you read it and examine what it does and doesn’t say.
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Ion
Guest
Do you have the feeling that Peter spoke to somebody who had the intentions of adding prophecies to the scriptures?
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concretecamper
Guest
The root of private interpretation is the lack of humility.
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Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
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Remnant1
Guest
Jn14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Matt28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Rev.19
10b for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. This testimony did not end at Patmos. And Christ will be with those that have that testimony through the Holy Spirit, prophecy, right up until the end of time.
1Cor.2
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
God is love
Remnant1
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Monergistic
Guest
He was speaking to people who probably had the intention of writing something of some kind at some point, and he wanted to outline the difference between Scripture (or prophecy of Scripture) and other writings. Scripture’s source is the Holy Spirit, as men of God are carried along by Him. Anything else you might write is produced by private interpretation, which is not characteristic of Scripture. I do expect that the most influential men reading this would have intended to produce the most influential writing in the early Christian communities, and it was necessary to ensure that people understand the difference between influential writing and prophecy of Scripture- one is produced by the Holy Spirit, and the other is produced by private interpretation.
So again, to your question- do I think this was read by anyone who would have tried to add something to Scripture, all on their own, without being carried along by the Holy Spirit as they produce something from their own private interpretation? Yes. There certainly were a variety of people who tried- have you heard of the Gnostic gospels? There’s 52 of them. They were produced by private interpretation and not by men who were being carried along by the Holy Spirit. Also, they were produced by highly literate, educated men who had a great deal of familiarity with New Testament material, even if it wasn’t technically bound up in a single volume called the Bible yet.
So this passage may be the reason why there’s only 52 Gnostic gospels. It is probably a contributing reason why Gnostic gospels were only produced in the first four-five centuries of Christianity. And it certainly has a whole lot to do with the Gnostic gospels (and other writings) being excluded from every major Christian canon and exiled to the NT apocrypha.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Remnant…communal discernment is actually about theological reflections being submitted to the Church for discernment on whether or not they come from God. This deposit of faith did not pop out of the Holy Spirit in wind.
The affirmation came on Pentecost…the beginning of the Church, when human beings of different languages, could understand what St. Peter and the apostles were proclaiming.
Christology is likewise a science and methodology to discern that such and such uphold the faith given us by Christ through the apostles and their successors. It could not develop very well in the first 300 years due to slow communication, persecutions. Constantine signed the Edict of Milan in the mid 300’s giving Christianity the freedom to publicly exist. The discipline of Christology took of then and became defined.
Check out the Universal Catholic Church Catechism. It goes back to ancient writers, the Early Church Fathers. Likewise, Catholicism is about CONTEXT. The Church does not preach error. Your teachers are the one misguiding you and they have little education beyond what you literally can read on a page of the Bible.
Alot of you that are Restorationists or Evangelicals have a complete black out…and I do see from some instances…of early church history, and how the faith was put into practice, how the Bible was put together…Jesus did not pass out Bibles. Written text is so vulnerable to private interpretation.
The Church allows private interpretation: This is called Biblical Studies.
Early Church Fathers always submitted their writings to those in charge of the Church – the bishops to discern whether or not their teachings supported the Oral Tradition given by Christ to His apostles that is preserved even today by the Holy Spirit.
The Universal Christian Church is Catholic/Latin Rite and Orthodox/Eastern rite and within them both are many other rites reflecting local peoples but having same teachings, sacraments and living out faith…for 2,000 years.
The Lord did not leave us orphans for 1800 years otherwise He would not have been God.
We are ECCLESIAL DEISTS. That means, we believe Jesus Christ is big enough and even bigger as God to make His Church run by human beings.
He chose Peter to head His Church. How many minutes passed?? and then Peter is now trying to talk Jesus out of His Passion and death, and then —the Lord is calling Peter Satan for trying to get Him out of fulfilling His mission!!!
Christ chose human clay to run His Church, and we have to brace ourselves, pray for our leadership, and literally walk on faith at times until the ordeal passes, to stay faithful. What we look at is not the priests or pope in themselves, but Christ and the deposit of faith found in the Church.
Check out: www.calledtocommunion.com/EcclesialDeists. It was composed in 2009. It also addresses problems Baptists, Mormons and other restorationists have in trying to find out when their beliefs are not secured as to when the Great Apostasy happened.
If we had only the Holy Spirit with no church, we would be literal wind bags.
The affirmation came on Pentecost…the beginning of the Church, when human beings of different languages, could understand what St. Peter and the apostles were proclaiming.
Christology is likewise a science and methodology to discern that such and such uphold the faith given us by Christ through the apostles and their successors. It could not develop very well in the first 300 years due to slow communication, persecutions. Constantine signed the Edict of Milan in the mid 300’s giving Christianity the freedom to publicly exist. The discipline of Christology took of then and became defined.
Check out the Universal Catholic Church Catechism. It goes back to ancient writers, the Early Church Fathers. Likewise, Catholicism is about CONTEXT. The Church does not preach error. Your teachers are the one misguiding you and they have little education beyond what you literally can read on a page of the Bible.
Alot of you that are Restorationists or Evangelicals have a complete black out…and I do see from some instances…of early church history, and how the faith was put into practice, how the Bible was put together…Jesus did not pass out Bibles. Written text is so vulnerable to private interpretation.
The Church allows private interpretation: This is called Biblical Studies.
Early Church Fathers always submitted their writings to those in charge of the Church – the bishops to discern whether or not their teachings supported the Oral Tradition given by Christ to His apostles that is preserved even today by the Holy Spirit.
The Universal Christian Church is Catholic/Latin Rite and Orthodox/Eastern rite and within them both are many other rites reflecting local peoples but having same teachings, sacraments and living out faith…for 2,000 years.
The Lord did not leave us orphans for 1800 years otherwise He would not have been God.
We are ECCLESIAL DEISTS. That means, we believe Jesus Christ is big enough and even bigger as God to make His Church run by human beings.
He chose Peter to head His Church. How many minutes passed?? and then Peter is now trying to talk Jesus out of His Passion and death, and then —the Lord is calling Peter Satan for trying to get Him out of fulfilling His mission!!!
Christ chose human clay to run His Church, and we have to brace ourselves, pray for our leadership, and literally walk on faith at times until the ordeal passes, to stay faithful. What we look at is not the priests or pope in themselves, but Christ and the deposit of faith found in the Church.
Check out: www.calledtocommunion.com/EcclesialDeists. It was composed in 2009. It also addresses problems Baptists, Mormons and other restorationists have in trying to find out when their beliefs are not secured as to when the Great Apostasy happened.
If we had only the Holy Spirit with no church, we would be literal wind bags.
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