Private Intrepretation answer please

[chrisg93]

Exporter and twf and wisdom,

Thanks for the good advice. Unfortunately, they have their story already prepared.

2 Peter 1:20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
They say this applies to the person who wrote the Bible, not the person reading the Bible.

2 Peter 3:15-16 In regard to Paul’s letters: " There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."
They used this against me saying I am going to hell.

Luke 24:45, “Then He opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures.”
Jesus has opened their minds and I have closed my mind to Jesus.

I need a definitive argument, some thing that can’t be refuted. Something along the lines of "your 12 year old son believes in your church, can he infallibly intrepret the Bible?

 

[plakamhil]

This may sound irrelevant but I’ll try it anyway: some years ago my younger brother and I were quarreling about why he was given the name “Sunday”. I was so sure that he was named Sunday because he was born on Sunday but he said no. He was sure he was born on Wednesday. The quarrel was just heading the wrong way when our mom finally came by and asked what was going on. When I explained to her my thoughts on my brother’s name, she said “Nope. You are wrong, he was born on a Wednesday but was named after your grandfather’s brother.” So, assumptions (private interpretation) can be wrong.

Plakamhil

 

[theMutant]

2 Peter 3:15-16 In regard to Paul’s letters: " There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."
They used this against me saying I am going to hell.

If this was their argument, then don’t expect to see the results of your apologetic work. Remember that it is not your job to convert them, but to plant the seads that the Holy Spirit will cause to grow. Present the faith and present it accurately. Always be willing to address any Catholic belief with kindness and charity. Your witness and example may, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, serve to convert some of them, but don’t wait for it to happen.

2 Peter 1:20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
They say this applies to the person who wrote the Bible, not the person reading the Bible.
…
Luke 24:45, “Then He opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures.”
Jesus has opened their minds and I have closed my mind to Jesus.

I need a definitive argument, some thing that can’t be refuted. Something along the lines of "your 12 year old son believes in your church, can he infallibly intrepret the Bible?

Try this. Don’t go on the defensive trying to prove that the Catholic Church is right, go on the offensive and have them prove that they are right.

Tell them that while you accept Scripture, you only do so because of the Church. If they want you to believe that they are right, then they have to prove to you that the Scripture is the word of God and that you will only accept their interpretation of Scripture if they can provide that proof. This is something I also addressed in the other thread. Ask them specifics like, “why should I accept that the Gospel of Matthew is inspired Scripture?” After all, it doesn’t make that claim for itself (and even if it did, why should you believe what it claims about itself? Anyone could write something and include “this is the word of God.”) If they say that it was written by an Apostle, ask them to prove it. The author is never identified in any chapter and verse (the title identifying it is not part of the actual writing but was added later). If they say that it was accepted by the other Apostles, ask them to prove that claim from Scripture. The same argument can be made regarding many of the writings of Scripture.

As I pointed out in the other thread, it is amazing the amount of beliefs that the so-called Bible alone Christians hold that are not found in Scripture at all; let alone in an interpretation of what is in Scripture.

The result of this exchange might well be that they condemn you to hell (again) and refuse to talk to you (after all, silence is their only defense against such questions because they have no good answer). If that does not happen, ask how they know that when they interpret Scripture they are being moved by the Holy Spirit? I’m not talking generalities here, I mean exactly how do they KNOW that this is happening? How do they know that THEIR interpretation is from the Holy Spirit when others make the same claim about contradicting interpretations?

Make sure that they defend their argument ONLY FROM SCRIPTURE. When they point to other verses, as they undoubtedly will, as them the same question about their interpretation of those verses. They will not be able to satisfy that questioning because the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). From there, point out the many particular teachings about the Church that are in Scripture (which are listed in the thread to which I linked above) that are only believed by the Catholic Church and ask why they don’t follow Scripture in those examples.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

chrisg93:

2 Peter 3:15-16 In regard to Paul’s letters: " There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."
They used this against me saying I am going to hell.

Looking at it from their point of view, since they hold the keys to Scriptural interpretation then they have the prerogative of interpreting it in a way that furthers their cause. It is self-serving. According to 1 Cor 13, that is not love because love is self-serving, and without love, all knowledge of the scriptures and ability to speak tongues and all that stuff is nothing.

I find it interesting they would presume to know you are going to hell, because they have either judged you and therefore subjected themselves to judgment, or they have presumed to know the mind of God. Paul said that anyone who thinks they know something do not know as they ought to know.

None of this will matter to them.

Alan

 

[JCurrist]

Chris,

I attract Fundementalists, and realized one of the duties God has for me is to be ‘smart’ Catholic. Its hard at first: some like your answers, many will not. If you’re not sure of an answer, you need to find it-you’re constantly learning. You will be discriminated and disliked. Others will like you because you are faithful, brave, and knowledgeable. Some people will fear you-no joke. This might the beginning of your calling by God: to be a defender of the Faith. Next time your Church has Eucharistic Adoration, go to it and pray if this is your calling and for help. Then listen.

Re: your question, picture this: When a child comes to your door selling candy, trying to persuade you to buy stuff you sort of like but know you really don’t need, it is easy to say No: one person, young, not too thrilled about the product.
However, replace this one child with two adults, who are enthusiastic and tenatious, prepared with a persuavsive sales-pitch, and it will be difficult it is to say No. Add that this is their salvation and they believe they need to convert non-believers, and you have your two visitors.

Can you see the reason why they come in pairs and speak to individuals, off-guard? They want to sell their product/convert you.The missonaries are well-trained, prepared, with tracks and determination. Their ‘sale’ is your conversion: “Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus? Are you sure you are going to Heaven?, because I am…” Recognize the nicely prepared sales pitch?

You may say I’m cynical, but this quote has occurred too many times for me to believe it is not part of a script. This approach no longer seems sincere. In observing them during their sales pitch, I usually end up seeing two people who are infactuated with their religion, what to spread the intense feeling of infactuation, but yet missed the mark on finding the true joy of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In speaking with them, I have come to realize:

1. Many are former Catholics who were left behind, want to blame the Church for what they don’t want to believe, disenfranchised etc . I find myself wanting to reach out to them especially, let them know they’re always welcome, to come back and find the truth. Some like the intense joy of the Protestant Communities, but have admitted the feeling wained.
2. Many Protestants believe anything said about Catholics because their respected family and chuch leaders told them. This is natural; we follow our leaders in all aspects of life, including our Church.
3. Once a Fundementalist believes this, they do not want to be proved wrong. This is their salvation, along with most of their social life.
4. Many also believe we are dumb. Nothing scares a Fundementalist to her/his soul than a humble, unassuming ‘smart’ Catholic that is prepared to defend her/his faith with confidence, joy, and logic when caught off-guard. =)
5. This is my opinion, and hope I am proved wrong one day, but I believe Fundementalists also have a motive of pride and vanity to preach and attempt to convert Catholics; many (not all)of them truly believe they are better than we are. We know Pride and Vanity are 2 of the 7 Deadly Sins. They’re difficult but not impossible to change to the Spirt of Knowledge and Piety (2 of the 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirt).

The best way to Defend your Faith is to find one their personal specific problems with Catholicism, and not the rhetoric. Find a specific question, learn about it completely, and then invite her/him/them back and answer it; it is OK to have notes, but eventually you won’t need them. Also, ask your priest where you can find a great Bible Study or spiritual guide to help you with your learning. You’ll be grateful.

Thanks for letting me answer.
Julie
"The devil,the prowde spirit… cannot endure to be mocked.” -St. Thomas More

 

[AlanFromWichita]

theMutant:

Ask them specifics like, “why should I accept that the Gospel of Matthew is inspired Scripture?” After all, it doesn’t make that claim for itself (and even if it did, why should you believe what it claims about itself? Anyone could write something and include “this is the word of God.”) If they say that it was written by an Apostle, ask them to prove it. The author is never identified in any chapter and verse (the title identifying it is not part of the actual writing but was added later). If they say that it was accepted by the other Apostles, ask them to prove that claim from Scripture. The same argument can be made regarding many of the writings of Scripture.

I really like your strategy; in fact I think your whole post of this morning is excellent. :clapping:

You reminded me of some of the more intense moments of my “dark night” times, but I think I’ll spare you the details for the moment. If these people know so much about being guided by the Spirit, I’d think they should be able to teach me, too, so they can “bring me up” to their level. If they can’t do that, then I’d wonder what makes them unique. I wonder if they’d think one has to renounce Catholicism?

If that does not happen, ask how they know that when they interpret Scripture they are being moved by the Holy Spirit? I’m not talking generalities here, I mean exactly how do they KNOW that this is happening? How do they know that THEIR interpretation is from the Holy Spirit when others make the same claim about contradicting interpretations?

Right on, bro! Get them to pin it down. The worst that can happen is they will encounter a deeper examination of their own faith.

Alan

 

[ahimsaman72]

chrisg93:

Hi Erich,
They said he needed teaching because he was not yet baptised. They said once you get baptised into their “true Church” you can intrepret the Bible infallibly.

They have a wagon full of answers to every objection. All spurious, of course. I need something definitive. They despise the Church Fathers, especially St. Augustine.

Actually, I love Augustine .

Who was Philip? Philip was a disciple of Jesus. Philip was given authority and commanded by Christ to teach and baptize (found in Matt.28). He was given the same authority as Peter, Paul and the rest of the disciples. Christians today (disciples) have that same authority and commandment from Christ to teach others and baptize.

No one can interpret the Bible infallibly. The Bible is infallible. Humans are not.

 

[ahimsaman72]

neophyte:

If you ask them how one can be sure of being born again they’ll likely reference the verse “Confess with thy lips and believe in thine heard that Jesus if Lord, and you will be saved” or make some similar argument.

On further discussion it may turn out that they also believe that, when we are saved, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who will enlighten each of us so we can each interpret scripture.

Then point out that you do, in fact, confess with your lips and believe with all your heart that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And yet you have a different understanding of scripture than they do.

So either the Holy Spirit does not indwell each Christian in the manner they suggest, or else the “confess with thy lips” does not provide the assurance they believe. In either case they are proven to not be infallible interpreters.

The third option is that the Holy Spirit brings a message of confusion. I don’t think they’d go for that any more than I would.

Don’t expect to convince them, all you can do is plant seeds.

You are sealed by the Holy Spirit at conversion. (See 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13, Eph. 4:30)

The Holy Spirit indwells to be sure. The epistles are full of information as regards the struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Remember the verse, “The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak”? (Matt.26:41)

No one is infallible. Not the Pope, bishops, you or me.

The passage of confessing the Lord Jesus is found in Rom 10:9,10 and is the formula for salvation summarized.

 

[beng]

ahimsaman72:

Actually, I love Augustine .

Who was Philip? Philip was a disciple of Jesus. Philip was given authority and commanded by Christ to teach and baptize (found in Matt.28). He was given the same authority as Peter, Paul and the rest of the disciples. Christians today (disciples) have that same authority and commandment from Christ to teach others and baptize

Philip and others were not given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven…

No one can interpret the Bible infallibly. The Bible is infallible. Humans are not.

So, Bible writers were not infallible too I guess.

 

[Malachi4U]

chrisg93:

Need help with Evangelicals who claim the can intrepret the Bible infallibly. They are wonderful people but they are really stuck on this. Can anyone help me?

Easy, ask them which of their thousands upon thousands of contridicting interpretations of Scripture are the infallible ones?

As I recall Jesus taught one Faith, one mind, one authority, one Church, not countless ones that change with every whim and fancy of human sinfullness.

The fact you had to ask this questions proves their point absolutly false.

 

[ahimsaman72]

beng:

Philip and others were not given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven…

So, Bible writers were not infallible too I guess.

This “keys to the kingdom of heaven” were given to all apostles as can be ascertained by Mt. 18:18…

The writers were not infallible. What was written was infallible. Simple.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

ahimsaman72:

This “keys to the kingdom of heaven” were given to all apostles as can be ascertained by Mt. 18:18…

From the CCC:

1444 In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Mt 16:19 The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head. Mt 18:18, 28:16-20

The keys were only given to Peter, Our Lord is speaking directly to only him in Mt 16:19.

 

[beng]

ahimsaman72:

This “keys to the kingdom of heaven” were given to all apostles as can be ascertained by Mt. 18:18…

There are no “keys” in Matthew 18.

The writers were not infallible. What was written was infallible. Simple.

When the writers wrote, were they infallibly writing it?

 

[edwinG]

chrisg93:

But they are terribly anti-Catholic. They are wonderfully, courageously pro-life. They take pregnant women into their homes. They give to the poor. They are foster parents. They lead exemplary lives, but they are horribly anti-Catholic. The Catholic Church is Satan himself dressed up like priests.

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 1Jo 2:20

They take this passage as they have the power of the Holy Spirit to infallibly intrepret the Bible and I cannot possibly reason with them.

Hi Chris,
If you can’t, don’t bother. Love them for their Christian attitude. Let their love for Christ build you up. Dont create a barrier. Just have faith in Jesus and leave it up to Him. They are aware of the truth, who knows maybe it is only them who have it. We will go on believing as we can and searching and seeking.I am not where I was 5 years ago and in 5 more years who knows where my belief will be. I too just trust in Jesus, and try my best to submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit who is most active in my life.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

BayCityRickL:

to chrisg93: You’ve made the fundamental (no pun intended) observation of evangelicals.

Yes, they do oddly believe that they possess this faculty, while sternly rejecting the idea as absurd that Pope can do so. Go figure.

I’m inclined to say “why bother” but I suppose they deserve an answer. The Church teaches as doctrine that the Pope is preserrved from error when speaking on matters of faith and morals, when exercising his prerogatives as the leader of the Church on earth.

Hi BayCityRickL,
The “go figure” part. I am not Roman Catholic and my answer for this is from my point of view, the Roman Catholic church has moved so far away from scripture that it must have lost its way. Whoa, there nedy. For many weeks I have discussed many of these issues. We shouldn’t discuss them here on this thread. I am just answering the " go figure " phrase.
I do not claim infalliblity. Actually I know very little, but I do have a very personal relationship with the Holy Spirit so bit by bit I am learning.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Sarah_Jane]

If the protestants have the Holy Spirit, why do they have so many denominations?

 

[edwinG]

Erich:

How do they interpret the following verses from Acts:8?

27 So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.” 30 9 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

Hi Erich,
Great passage. It shows that “election” is the way to Christ. Philip was led by the Holy Spirit, preached, the eunuch believed, the Holy Spirit came and the eunuch rejoiced. This came about because of the leading of the Holy Spirit.
come Jesus come
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[JOE_OBERR]

edwinG:

Hi twf,
My comment is a little off target from a general perspective but to the point from another. It is to the point from the Law of Liberty Romans 14. I interpret this chapter as accepting individuality, be loving, do not hinder another’s faith but build one another up. I know this is against Catholism, but it is so in tune with our knowledge of God who is love. Look to Romans10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Now surely if someone does this the bible does not lie… . .
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Hello Edwin,

Where does the bible say that if one is saved he is going to heaven? Or that if he is not saved he is going to hell?

Joe

 

[edwinG]

***2Pet 1:20, St. Peter said, ******“This then you must understand first of all, that NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE IS MADE BY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.” ***I do not see how Peter could have said it any plainer than he did here. Why do Protestants ignore verses such as this one?

---

---

Who would you prefer to believe…
A group of learned men with impeccable qualifications, and the Holy Spirit to guide them?
Or some individuals interpretation of the Bible, who has questionable qualifications, and who does not have the truth of the Holy Spirit to guide him?

Hi Exporter,
Regarding the quote 2Peter1:20 Personally I dont think it is a matter of thinking I can interpret by my private knowledge, but that I am led by the Holy Spirit. Therefore for me, the scripture is not being ignored.I believe this scripture 100%

Learned men with impeccable qualifications.
An impeccable qualification is honored here on earth, but I dont think it holds much water in the kingdom of God and we are all members of the kingdom of God. A Phd in the kingdom of God is your circumstances, which put you where Jesus has work for you to do. That is the Phd which counts and if you live a life of submission to the Holy Spirit.
I am not sure how many weeks I have been here, but not once have I seen someone write excitedly about the result of the Holy Spirit’s leading in their life.

Questionable qualifications and no Holy Spirit?
How do you define “Questionable qualifications” and how do you know that the Holy Spirit is not leading them?
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

twf:

Edwin: You are only partially right. No individual, nor a certain group of individuals will have all the answers; however, the Sacred Writers, when penning Scriptures, had no doubt as to what was truth and what wasn’t. Paul makes it very clear how important sound doctrine is. They KNEW what sound doctrine was (or at least could know, if they asked) because there was an infallible Church guided by the Spirit through the apostles. When a major dispute came up, the Church called a council, and it’s deliberations were binding on all the faithful around the world. (See Acts 15). Paul had no uncertainty when it came to the Faith. We are not just a group of individuals claiming infallibility…we are the Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15). Can such a Church be led into heresy? No! Otherwise the gates of Hades would have prevailed against it, as it would no longer be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. The Spirit would lead the Church into ALL truth. (Jn 16:13). It is not our personal interpretations that are infallible, it is the constant teachings of Christ’s Church and her official declarations, led by the successors of the apostles (the bishops) and under the guidance of their chief, the successor of Peter…this is how the New Testament Church was guided. By Peter and the apostles. Their ministry was passed on to the bishops (as St. Clement or Rome already attests in the late first century in his epistle to the Corinthians, and to which Paul alludes to in 2 Tim. 2:1-2). (Actually we already see this in action in Scripture. For example, Matthias is chosen to replace Judas…and then we see that Timothy and Titus both have considerable apostolic authority, yet they were not from among the original apostles, but were ordained by the laying on of hands).

Here are some verses that emphasize the importance of sound doctrine (we have to have a way of knowing, as the NT Christians did):
1 Tim. 1:10
1 Tim. 6:3
2 Tim. 4:3
2 Tim. 1:3
Titus 1:9
Titus 2:1

God bless you.

Hi twf,
Thank you for your response. Your response, and this is normal, leads me to the belief that you are not aware of the leading of the Holy Spirit in your life. The answers appear to come from knowledge not from experience. Having a personal relationship with the “Comforter” makes living a Christian life a joyous life, a life filled with protection, where your faith is continually fortified. IT takes the worry out of life. It is the Holy Spirit that cause the Peace to be estabished in your life. Nothing , nothing can happen to you that is not allowed by God and then only that for your own benefit. To attend church and do your duties and obey all of the rules of the church without the leading of the Holy Spirit must be boring and somewhat difficult. I dont want to put anyone on the spot, but of those people who read this post, can you tell me about the latest incident where you were aware of the Holy Spirit in your life. Such a witness could only make me very happy.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG