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DVIN_CKS
Guest
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit makes it possible for you to interpret scripture correctly, and that it is not your own private knowledge of scripture that you rely on? I’m not sure I follow?
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ahimsaman72
Guest
The keys to the kingdom included the “binding and loosing” directive.
Oh, come now. "Were they infallibly writing it?" I meant exactly what I said. They were fallible humans. Don’t you agree? Don’t you also agree that the Holy Spirit inspired them to write what they wrote? So, here it is: man=fallible, Holy Spirit=infallible. Man=fallible wrote what the Holy Spirit=infallible directed him to write.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Sarah Jane:
If catholics have the Holy Spirit, why do they need a pope and bishops?
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beng
Guest
In Matthew 16:18-19 there’s the word “keys”
Not so in Matthew 18.
Plus in Matthew 16:18-19 the command was directed to Peter and the “you” is singular.
So, were the men infallible while writing it?
Simple yes and no
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Sarah_Jane
Guest
“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Clement of Rome, *Letter to the Corinthians *42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Sarah Jane:
Reasoning itself tells me two things. First, man is in error. Second, because of his error, he is incapable of being 100% accurate.
Many tell me that there is absolute truth and we can know it and that it’s found in the Catholic Church. I disagree. Absolute truth itself is found in the persons of the Trinity. That truth is revealed to us, but still living with our sinful nature, we cannot decipher this truth sometimes. Does that make sense to you?
Every major religion in the world has schools/denominations of their religion. Look around you. Islam has shiite and sunni’s. Buddhism has Tibetan, Mayahana, Theravada and many other schools. Christianity has many different schools of thought/denominations.
Reasoning itself tells me two things. First, man is in error. Second, because of his error, he is incapable of being 100% accurate.
Many tell me that there is absolute truth and we can know it and that it’s found in the Catholic Church. I disagree. Absolute truth itself is found in the persons of the Trinity. That truth is revealed to us, but still living with our sinful nature, we cannot decipher this truth sometimes. Does that make sense to you?
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edwinG
Guest
Sarah Jane:
I definitely have the Holy Spirit and He is active in my life. Now I assume you also have the Holy Spirit. I am not a catholic, you are (probably). it is very simple, we dont have to belong to the same group of priests to “believe in Jesus Christ and in His Father who sent Him and confess His name”
Now Romans 14 talks about this. I believe this chapter should be the creed for all people who consider themselves as apologists.
I am here to learn and see scripture from different angles and see some scripture placed alongside different scripture.
I am not here to convert. I am not here to bruise anyone’s faith.
Seek and you shall find, I seek the truth.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Hi Sarah Jane
I definitely have the Holy Spirit and He is active in my life. Now I assume you also have the Holy Spirit. I am not a catholic, you are (probably). it is very simple, we dont have to belong to the same group of priests to “believe in Jesus Christ and in His Father who sent Him and confess His name”
Now Romans 14 talks about this. I believe this chapter should be the creed for all people who consider themselves as apologists.
I am here to learn and see scripture from different angles and see some scripture placed alongside different scripture.
I am not here to convert. I am not here to bruise anyone’s faith.
Seek and you shall find, I seek the truth.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Sarah_Jane
Guest
I found the truth in the Catholic Church.
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mercygate
Guest
Does the Holy Spirit confine his workings to individual hearts? Must he be presumed not to work through the Church Our Lord himself breathed into existence in the person of his Apostles on Easter, and in the outpouring on Pentecost, when, again, all the apostles were gathered together? If the Spirit moves in my heart, does no other communication of the Spirit exist for my own good, for the good of Christ’s Church, and for the world?
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edwinG
Guest
JOE OBERR:
Can you tell me more please. I dont understand what you are asking. Romans 10:9 says you will be " saved"
Now do you want a connection between being saved and going to heaven. Can you list for me the options you see of being saved and of not being saved so I can understand.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
Hi Joe,
Can you tell me more please. I dont understand what you are asking. Romans 10:9 says you will be " saved"
Now do you want a connection between being saved and going to heaven. Can you list for me the options you see of being saved and of not being saved so I can understand.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
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beng
Guest
I though Jesus want His followers to be one. And didn’t Paul and John condemn dissension?
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ahimsaman72
Guest
You’re not listening. The word keys is not there. The same directive is there. Almost identical language is used in Matt. 16:18 and Matt. 18:18.
When you compare Scripture with Scripture, the reasoning for papal infallibility and primacy of Peter does not exist.
I cannot answer a question that is worded so as to give the answer you are looking for. I made it very clear. I even used “=” symbols to help
. But, let me state my belief one more time. Fallible men wrote infallible truth directed by the Holy Spirit. I cannot reduce it any further.
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edwinG
Guest
DVIN CKS:
I can read something many times and either have a meaning for the passage or just take the passage at face value and then on another occasion, my eyes will be opened. I used to think, it is so plain, why didnt I see it or understand it before. You feel kind of foolish, but now I realise what is happening. Mostly it is just a deeper understanding.
It is not true to say " The Holy Spirit makes it possible for you to interpret scripture correctly" I dont pick the scripture.
It is similar to God’s confirmation of His love for me. I ask in prayer to worship Him and thank Him that He allows us to worship and accepts my worship. One of the manifestations of this is songs of praise and worship welling up from my heart and bubbling over my lips. I can be walking along or doing any quiet activity or in bed and I suddenly realise I am singing. ( not out loud) Then I realised that what I was singing was pertinent to my current situation.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
Hi DVIN CKS,
I can read something many times and either have a meaning for the passage or just take the passage at face value and then on another occasion, my eyes will be opened. I used to think, it is so plain, why didnt I see it or understand it before. You feel kind of foolish, but now I realise what is happening. Mostly it is just a deeper understanding.
It is not true to say " The Holy Spirit makes it possible for you to interpret scripture correctly" I dont pick the scripture.
It is similar to God’s confirmation of His love for me. I ask in prayer to worship Him and thank Him that He allows us to worship and accepts my worship. One of the manifestations of this is songs of praise and worship welling up from my heart and bubbling over my lips. I can be walking along or doing any quiet activity or in bed and I suddenly realise I am singing. ( not out loud) Then I realised that what I was singing was pertinent to my current situation.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
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beng
Guest
No. You’re equaling Mat 18 with Mat 16 just because of the binding and loosing. But the fact is THERE NO “Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven” in Matthew 18. You can not disregard this. Plus the fact that on Mat 16 Jesus was only talking to Peter (singular “you”). That is WHY Jesus repeats again in Matthew 18 about the binding and loosing part ONLY (without the “keys to kingdom of Heaven”) because He wants to also gave the other Apostles this binding and loosing power.
Yes it is.
Just because you can’t see it and won’t understand it doesn’t mean that it’s not there. In fact many Church fathers will disagree with you.
Well, of course I won’t you to answer it the way I want, it is after all MY QUESTION. Yet it would still be YOUR answer.I cannot answer a question that is worded so as to give the answer you are looking for. I made it very clear. I even used “=” symbols to help
You not wanting to answer the question speaks volume that further answer is not really necessary.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
But in reality we (catholics and protestants) are one. We have the same faith. We have the same God, the same Saviour. The same blood washed away our sins. You and I were baptized into the same body of Christ. You choose to see us as separated.
I think what you may be referring to in the second part is the passage quoted here in I Cor.1:11-18
- For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
- Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? - I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
- Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
- And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
- For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
- For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
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beng
Guest
No, that’s not the reality. Heck,saying it that way is like insulting everybody’s intelligent.
Denominations is man made and is condemned Mat 12:25, Rome 13:13 [find “dissension”], 1 Cor 1:10-13, 1 cor 3:3-4, 1 Cor 11:18-19. 1Timothy 6:3-5 etc etc etc)
It’s hard if you don’t admit the fundamental difference and continue forwarding your “why can’t we all get along we think Christ is lord anyway” agenda.
The lowest common denominator is not the fullness of truth.
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edwinG
Guest
Sarah Jane:
I think it is wonderful that you are where Christ wants you to be.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Hi Sarah Jane
I think it is wonderful that you are where Christ wants you to be.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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ahimsaman72
Guest
What is the Kingdom of Heaven, beng? Look at the parables of Christ in Matthew. Look at the word, “key(s)” in other parts of Scripture. You claim I don’t want to believe what is there. I accuse you of the same.
Hopefully, my repetition of my belief helped. I told you time and time again and explained it in very simple terms. I cannot answer yes or no to your ambiguous question. You want me to answer it the way you want it? That’s ridiculous. Why even post? Why bother? This forum is about sharing/debating. If you have an agenda, by all means, go somewhere else.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
You have repeatedly ignored crucial statements I have made. I have mentioned that our perceptions are wrong, but that the truth is we are really united into the same body. If you mean this as insulting your intelligence or anyone else’s, that was not my intent and you know so.
And your agenda of “we are divided. we don’t like each other. catholics are the only ones going to heaven. everybody else is trash.” is better than my thoughts and beliefs in Christian unity???
We should not continue our discussions. It is better this way. I wish you peace and blessings. You can accept me as your brother or continue to be the one that Paul speaks of when referring to those who say, “I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas”. I will continue to accept you as brother if you name the same Christ I name.
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DVIN_CKS
Guest
Sarah Jane said:
Hmmmm…wasn’t A.D. 80 approx. 260 years before the Bible was printed??? If early Christians were lead by the Holy Spirit to seek the truth they had to look no further than the apostolic successors and the oral teachings they professed. Our Apostles knew how to continue their ministry of spreading the good news and teaching it as it was taught them (without error). To deny this legacy is to deny the Apostles and the ministry that Jesus appointed them to carry out.
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