Private Intrepretation answer please

[beng]

ahimsaman72:

What is the Kingdom of Heaven, beng? Look at the parables of Christ in Matthew. Look at the word, “key(s)” in other parts of Scripture.

What about it?

Cite another verse about “keys to the kingdom of Heaven”

You claim I don’t want to believe what is there. I accuse you of the same.

I’m not the one omitting words from scripture. The scripture says “Keys to Kingdom of Heaven” it has to mean something.

Hopefully, my repetition of my belief helped. I told you time and time again and explained it in very simple terms. I cannot answer yes or no to your ambiguous question. You want me to answer it the way you want it? That’s ridiculous. Why even post? Why bother? This forum is about sharing/debating. If you have an agenda, by all means, go somewhere else.

No no.

You dln’t need to answer as I have said. Your constant refusal already speaks volume.

 

[beng]

ahimsaman72:

You have repeatedly ignored crucial statements I have made. I have mentioned that our perceptions are wrong, but that the truth is we are really united into the same body. If you mean this as insulting your intelligence or anyone else’s, that was not my intent and you know so.

Are you a relativist? There’s no perception in absolute truth.

And the fact is Protestantism and Orthodox are not united within themselves. If you want to keep sugesting that the lowest common denominator can be use as symbol of unity than you’re comprimising the fullness of truth. Heck I can say that you are united with Moslem just because Moslem and you believe in a divine and perfect being.

And your agenda of “we are divided. we don’t like each other. catholics are the only ones going to heaven. everybody else is trash.” is better than my thoughts and beliefs in Christian unity???

My agenda is:

Compromising truth to pursue false unity is NEVER the Christian faith

We should not continue our discussions. It is better this way. I wish you peace and blessings. You can accept me as your brother or continue to be the one that Paul speaks of when referring to those who say, “I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas”. I will continue to accept you as brother if you name the same Christ I name.

I’m accepting you as separated brethren. Because, hey, we are separated.

 

[ahimsaman72]

beng:

What about it?

Cite another verse about “keys to the kingdom of Heaven”

I’m not the one omitting words from scripture. The scripture says “Keys to Kingdom of Heaven” it has to mean something.

No no.

You dln’t need to answer as I have said. Your constant refusal already speaks volume.

If you study “keys” and you study “kingdom of heaven” and put them together, you will get the answers you need.

I have not refused to answer my beliefs. I have explained them as simply and completely as I can. Find another way to ask your question. Re-word it.

 

[ahimsaman72]

beng:

Are you a relativist? There’s no perception in absolute truth.

And the fact is Protestantism and Orthodox are not united within themselves. If you want to keep sugesting that the lowest common denominator can be use as symbol of unity than you’re comprimising the fullness of truth. Heck I can say that you are united with Moslem just because Moslem and you believe in a divine and perfect being.

My agenda is:

Compromising truth to pursue false unity is NEVER the Christian faith

I’m accepting you as separated brethren. Because, hey, we are separated.

We should start with similarities and work upward, not the other way around.

And you still are not a separated brother, no matter if the catechism or bishops say it is true.

Peace…

 

[Sarah_Jane]

ahimsaman72:

We should start with similarities and work upward, not the other way around.

And you still are not a separated brother, no matter if the catechism or bishops say it is true.

Peace…

Ut unum sint…

 

[beng]

ahimsaman72:

If you study “keys” and you study “kingdom of heaven” and put them together, you will get the answers you need.

If you have the answer, do provide it. Until then you’re just writing incomprehensibly.

I have not refused to answer my beliefs. I have explained them as simply and completely as I can. Find another way to ask your question. Re-word it.

It’s my question. It is an easy question.

And as I have said, your answer is no longer necessary.

 

[beng]

ahimsaman72:

We should start with similarities and work upward, not the other way around.

We’re not in the “starting” process. We’re discussing something that is beyond the “starting” process.

And you still are not a separated brother, no matter if the catechism or bishops say it is true.

Peace…

We are seperated.

 

[Kurt_G]

Hello everyone(anyone). I saw some recent discussion on this thread about Peter and “the Keys”, and would like to pitch this observation out there:

"I will give to you the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven."
Matthew 16

**“I will place upon his shoulder the Key to the House of David. When he opens no one shall shut, and when he shuts no one shall open.” Isaiah 22:22 **

To say that Jesus was not drawing from the Isaiah passage stretches credibility for me. The similarities are just too close to think otherwise. So someone might say "so what?"
Well, the background to the Isaiah passage is full of authority being passed around. King Hezekiah had his “prime minister” or “master of the House” (named Shebnah) guilty of some bad stuff, and the Lord God was putting a new man in charge of the House of David (Eliakim) who would answer only to King Hezekiah himself. The “Keys” passage in Isaiah is packed right in the middle of a lenghty passage dealing with authority. In Jesus’ choice to paraphrase Isaiah 22, I see the following possibilities:

1. Jesus might not have realized how close he was to Isaiah’s passage. (hard to buy)

**2. Jesus could have been fully aware of Isaiah 22, and, not intending to give Peter any special authority, still used the keys analogy for some other reason (the one I hear a lot is that Peter could now unlock the doors to heaven and let everybody in, Gentiles included) Of course, if Jesus intended no authority to be given, he would have chosen a poor passage (one overloaded with authority issues) to paraphrase from previous Scripture. **(also hard to buy)

**3. Jesus knew Isaiah intimately, knew exactly what he was matching up when he made his “keys” statement, and assumed that his listeners would also know the Isaiah passage alluded to. (This is easiest for me to buy) **

The Isaiah verses even get juicier… “He shall be a Father to the inhabitants of Judah and to the inhabitants of Israel”. Some recent converts have suggested that these Isaiah passages are prophetic, because Judah and Israel were not united at Hezekiah’s time. (I don’t know that, I just heard it) To be a “Father” to both of them implied something to come in the future. A (Papa/Father)?

Anyway, anyone who discusses “Keys to the Kingdom” and does not include Isaiah Chapter 22, totally misses the meaning (in my opinion). Great forum!

 

[JOE_OBERR]

edwinG:

Hi Joe,
Can you tell me more please. I dont understand what you are asking. Romans 10:9 says you will be " saved"
Now do you want a connection between being saved and going to heaven. Can you list for me the options you see of being saved and of not being saved so I can understand.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Hi Edwin,
I’m a little unsure of your question about what the options of being saved or not saved. Another way I could put it is this, when you quote Rom 10:9, what do see yourself being saved from?
In Christ,
Joe

 

[edwinG]

JOE OBERR:

Hi Edwin,
I’m a little unsure of your question about what the options of being saved or not saved. Another way I could put it is this, when you quote Rom 10:9, what do see yourself being saved from?
In Christ,
Joe

Hi JOE,
Thanks for helping me out on this one
I see myself being saved from separation from God.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[ahimsaman72]

Sarah Jane:

Ut unum sint…

I love it when someone speaks a dead language.

 

[chrisg93]

Julie was right. The husband and wife were brought up Catholic until their early teens. For some reason they developed an extreme bitterness toward Catholics.

They justify many denominations by the line from St Paul that says (paraphrase) “some follow Appolonis, some follow Gaius”. And they don’t think Jesus is divided (?). They give speaking in tongues as the true evidence of The Holy Spirit.

I did make two important points with them…

1. They never say the Our Father. Jesus tells us directly to say this prayer and they have refused to ever say it. They were speachless.
2. The Catholic Ban on contraception. They are pro-life so they understood this immediately. They were speachless.

Again it boils down to this passage for them…

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 1Jo 2:20

Can anyone help me with this passage?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 1Jo 2:20

Can anyone help me with this passage?

This may be a long shot, but when we were arguing about Mary’s perpetual virginity, supposedly when she said she doesn’t “know” man it did not refer to only past tense but a perpetual condition.

I wonder if somehow this “know” implies a perpetual condition, which would mean that at some time within our spiritual longevity we will “know” all things.

Still I am curious how this passage correlates to 1 Cor 8:2 “If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.”

Alan

 

[Sarah_Jane]

ahimsaman72:

I love it when someone speaks a dead language.

 

[chrisg93]

Mutant,

Great article you wrote on the other thread, but it doesn’t cover 1 John 2:20. I guess we’ll have to cover every passage in the Bible to satisfy these folks!

AlanFromWichita

Vatican website says 1 Cor 8:2 refers to “disordered sense of liberation that Paul here tries to rectify”. Does that work to intrepret 1 John 2:20? I don’t know.

Hey, I just had an idea. If they know “all things” then they must know what Paul’s thorn in the flesh really was. I’ll ask them. Can you think of any other Bible mysteries to ask them?

 

[mercygate]

chrisg93:

Hey, I just had an idea. If they know “all things” then they must know what Paul’s thorn in the flesh really was. I’ll ask them. Can you think of any other Bible mysteries to ask them?

Where is Moses buried?

 

[theMutant]

edwinG:

…how do you know that the Holy Spirit is not leading them?

edwinG,

I personally believe that the Holy Spirit is leading eveyone in some way or another; however, when it comes to interpreting the Bible, I know when the Holy Spirit is not leading them; when they come to conclusions based on some verses of Scripture which are directly contradicted by other verses of Scripture. As I indicated in the posts to which I linked in post #15 above - in one of your own threads - Scripture clearly describes the authoritative structure of the Church. The fact that the Catholic interpretation of these Scriptures is true is supported by the fact that the early Church - in the time immediately following the Apostles - believed the same thing about the authority and structure of Christ’s Church and the Sacraments He established as the Catholic Church teaches down to this day. I give many citations to support these statements in that thread.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

chrisg93:

Hey, I just had an idea. If they know “all things” then they must know what Paul’s thorn in the flesh really was. I’ll ask them. Can you think of any other Bible mysteries to ask them?

Dear chris93,

Funny you should ask about this. In one of my weirder moments of manic episode mixed with spiritual warfare earlier this year, I figured I had an answer to that. When I told my favorite retired priest he said that has remained a mystery.

Here’s what I figured; the thorn in the flesh was me. I would be the person who wanted to learn and understand everything he knew, but in the process questioned each and every thing he said if it didn’t absolutely make sense to me. I got that way because of doubt and/or pride, and my function in the body of Christ was to be that thorn by questioning everything and therefore holding those who would be teachers to higher standards and not empty, prideful platforms they didn’t really believe or understand themselves. I thought that the thorn, while causing pain and making its wearer wish it away, was a loving gift like my father was when he used to proofread school papers I wrote to incredibly high standards.

At least it sounded good at the time. I’d like to hear what the omniscient evangelicals think the thorn is.

Alan

 

[chrisg93]

LOL with love.

I will ask them and let you know.

 

[twf]

edwinG:

Hi twf,
Thank you for your response. Your response, and this is normal, leads me to the belief that you are not aware of the leading of the Holy Spirit in your life. The answers appear to come from knowledge not from experience. Having a personal relationship with the “Comforter” makes living a Christian life a joyous life, a life filled with protection, where your faith is continually fortified. IT takes the worry out of life. It is the Holy Spirit that cause the Peace to be estabished in your life. Nothing , nothing can happen to you that is not allowed by God and then only that for your own benefit. To attend church and do your duties and obey all of the rules of the church without the leading of the Holy Spirit must be boring and somewhat difficult. I dont want to put anyone on the spot, but of those people who read this post, can you tell me about the latest incident where you were aware of the Holy Spirit in your life. Such a witness could only make me very happy.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

I’m sure you did not mean offence, but this post is quite presumptuous. Who are you to say that I do not seek the guidance of the Spirit? The Catholic Church certainly does teach that we are guided by the Spirit and must listen to Him. He guides me in my daily life. He provides me with opportunities to share my faith. He provides me with answers when I face doubts. He enlightens me through my reading of Sacred Scripture. He comforts, and strengthens me in the tasks that I am called to complete.

In Sacred Scripture, like I have pointed out here and in other threads, it is clear that the individual believers did not reach all the conclusions on their own, listening to the Spirit by themselves. This is true in daily life, but as far as doctrine is concerned, they were taught by the Church. In Acts 15, a council was called, of the apostles and elders, to decide the matter of Gentile circumcision because individual Christians were confused. Scripture NEVER teaches that we will individually be infallibly led into a full understanding of Christian doctrine. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) not you individually! Paul exhorted the church to “hold fast to the Traditions handed down to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15). They were not expected to reach doctrinal conclusions on their own…no they were taught by the apostles, and Paul told Timothy that this pattern was to continue. (See 2 Tim. 2:1-2).

Please show me in Scriptures where it says that individual Christians can come to a full knowledge of the Christian Faith without the teaching authority of the Church. You won’t find it anywhere, for the New Testament Church was taught by the apostles and their co-workers. We are guided by the Spirit, but we are also a Church—there is no such thing as a ‘lone ranger’ Christian.

Do you believe that you can not err in your interpretation of Scripture because you are guided by the Spirit? If you’re answer is yes, then you must justify it from the Biblical model. I’m not saying that you do, I don’t know.

God bless you,
Tyler