Private Judgment and the Magisterium

[joe370]

Clearly we have opposing beliefs. The holy spirit guides me to believe one thing and the holy spirit guides you to believe the exact opposite. Is that what the holy spirit is doing? No sarcasm intended; that is a serious question!!!

Oh I’m not getting into this debate by any means. And I apologize if my words were misconstrued, I meant if your opinions on Protestant interpretation of the bible were formed by other people railing on Protestants, specifically Catholics on this forum, your views might be a little different from what they actually believe. No one likes a straw man.

I felt you were disrespecting the Word of God by calling it “a bunch of infallible books” and claiming that it could not correct people. You most likely were not, but that’s just how it came across to me. If I called the pope “just an old guy” that would not be giving him the respect he deserves, yeh? A sinner does not need the Magisterium to interpret the gospel message: the Holy Spirit can do just fine himself. In deep matters of theology, I think, is where the discussion usually goes toward. But no, Joe and Pablope, I am not here to argument a Protestant view of biblical hermeneutics because it is a bit pointless. You won’t change my mind, and I won’t change yours because I’m sure we have both heard the arguments for either side and decided. Again, I’ll depend on the Holy Spirit, and not myself or anyone else, to convict our hearts of the truth. Maybe he’ll even do it through his written Word, eh?

 

[rainman10]

Great: now in the SAME way:

When a Protestant’s private interpretation is in conflict with the Bible, they are in error.

Yes, this is true, but who has the authority to tell that person that he/she is in conflict with the Bible? Is it you? Or is it some other individual?

 

[rainman10]

Actually here’s the thing.

When Protestants state they it “all goes back to the Bible”
Catholics point out the disagreements between Protestants about the Bible.
As if that was the worst thing ever.

When Catholics state they it "all goes back to the Church "
Catholics ignore the disagreements between Catholics about the Church.
As if it doesn’t matter

I think the big difference here is that when protestants disagree about the bible, they are still protestant. They just go find another church that teaches their interpretation of the bible or they start their own church so they can teach their own interpretation to anyone else who will listen to them.

When Catholics disagree with the Church, there is no choice. They don’t go start another Catholic Church. In order to be a true Catholic you must be in agreement with the Church’s teachings. You don’t have to understand the teachings but you must be in agreement with the Church, otherwise, you are not a true Catholic.

What does the Bible say is the pillar and foundation of truth? The Church, Jesus Christ’s Church.

What does the Bible say about where to take disagreements to? The Church, Jesus Christ’s Church, not the Bible.

 

[rainman10]

so it’s different beliefs under one roof vs. different beliefs under different roofs?

Is it possible 300 years from now that the traditionalist Catholics prevail and Vatican II is over turned?

Is it possible in the future, that this period of Catholic history (like other periods) will be viewed as having needed to be “adjusted”?

NO. it is one belief under one roof.

No, it will not be “overturned”, it will be further clarified.

Again,no. It will be further clarified.

 

[rainman10]

“Is eating meat On Lenten Fridays: A Mortal Sin?
It is”
-James Akin

Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states: “Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell.”

therefore…If you are eating Meat On Lenten Fridays and die you will immediately descend into hell.
That seem important, right?

The practice of not eating meat of Fridays may be a discipline but the result is a doctrine.

“immediately descend into hell” seem a bit stronger than a discipline;
but again this thread is NOT about the proclamations : it is about the fact that different Catholics interpret them differently.

reading the older catechisms ; did Catholics reach the the same conclusion regrading Limbo as you? did their private interpretation differ from yours on the eternal state of unbaptized babies? that seem important, right?

When Protestants state they it “all goes back to the Bible”
Catholics point out the disagreements between Protestants about the Bible.
As if that was the worst thing ever.

When Catholics state they it "all goes back to the Church "
Catholics ignore the disagreements between Catholics about the Church.
As if it doesn’t matter

That my friend is hypocrisy.

Why is it acceptable to answer that you are correct if your interpretation agrees with the the church has a whole?

But it is unacceptable to to answer that Protestants are correct if their interpretation agrees with the the Bible has a whole?

Because in both cases, the Church has the final authority, not the Bible.

 

[rainman10]

Oh I’m not getting into this debate by any means. And I apologize if my words were misconstrued, I meant if your opinions on Protestant interpretation of the bible were formed by other people railing on Protestants, specifically Catholics on this forum, your views might be a little different from what they actually believe. No one likes a straw man.

I felt you were disrespecting the Word of God by calling it “a bunch of infallible books” and claiming that it could not correct people. You most likely were not, but that’s just how it came across to me. If I called the pope “just an old guy” that would not be giving him the respect he deserves, yeh? A sinner does not need the Magisterium to interpret the gospel message: the Holy Spirit can do just fine himself. In deep matters of theology, I think, is where the discussion usually goes toward. But no, Joe and Pablope, I am not here to argument a Protestant view of biblical hermeneutics because it is a bit pointless. You won’t change my mind, and I won’t change yours because I’m sure we have both heard the arguments for either side and decided. Again, I’ll depend on the Holy Spirit, and not myself or anyone else, to convict our hearts of the truth. Maybe he’ll even do it through his written Word, eh?

So if you and I have a different interpretation of the same verse in the Bible and we are both led by the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is causing confusion and is lying to one of us? And if we go to a third person to find out which one of us is wrong, and this third person is being led by the Holy Spirit, and has a third opinion, then which one if us is the Holy Spirit lying to? So we go to ten more people, led by the Holy Spirit to find out who is right and who is wrong, and they all have different opinions, who is the Holy Spirit lying to? And who makes that determination? I think in Protestantism, you just keep asking until you find one person who has the same interpretation as you do, then you can say “see I was right”. Not much unity in this system.

 

[rainman10]

Yes, this is true, but who has the authority to tell that person that he/she is in conflict with the Bible? Is it you? Or is it some other individual?

Tester has never answered this question, he/she has been avoiding it. I would like to get an answer…if he/she has one. Maybe a larger font size will help to see it better.

who has the authority to tell that person that he/she is in conflict with the Bible? Is it you? Or is it some other individual?

 

[joe370]

Exactly rainman… That is why I belong to the CC now…As a protestant I felt utterly lost in all of the confusion where the bible was touted as the Christians final authority via private interpretation.

So if you and I have a different interpretation of the same verse in the Bible and we are both led by the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is causing confusion and is lying to one of us? And if we go to a third person to find out which one of us is wrong, and this third person is being led by the Holy Spirit, and has a third opinion, then which one if us is the Holy Spirit lying to? So we go to ten more people, led by the Holy Spirit to find out who is right and who is wrong, and they all have different opinions, who is the Holy Spirit lying to? And who makes that determination? I think in Protestantism, you just keep asking until you find one person who has the same interpretation as you do, then you can say “see I was right”. Not much unity in this system.

 

[joe370]

Tester has never answered this question, he/she has been avoiding it. I would like to get an answer…if he/she has one. Maybe a larger font size will help to see it better.

who has the authority to tell that person that he/she is in conflict with the Bible? Is it you? Or is it some other individual?

The church founded by Jesus Christ circa AD 33 on Pentecost, and that church is the Catholic Church in union with the bishop of Rome. You will never ever get a direct answer like that from any non-Catholic, but it doesn’t hurt to keep asking; I do…

 

[Janet1983]

The church founded by Jesus Christ circa AD 33 on Pentecost, and that church is the Catholic Church in union with the bishop of Rome.

So you are saying that the Catholic Church is the only authority when it comes to Scripture? I don’t believe that it is so. I do believe that God is indeed working in all Christians and I do not believe the Bible to be so cryptic that it cannot be understood by the layman.

 

[tester]

Dear Big Fonts:
Protestants don’t claim** God’s** attribute of infallibly.
In fact we don’t think it right to assign any of the Godly attributes or roles to any man, women, or institution.
Attributes or roles like infallibly or sinless, or redemer or mediator or High Priest or all knowing … and BTW what does the word Vicar mean?

Infallibility is not a requirement of God’s chosen people ( the Jews) with God’s infallible Word contained in God’s inerrant Scripture.

Read Romans 14: it more than about food.

 

[pablope]

Dear Big Fonts:
Protestants don’t claim** God’s** attribute of infallibly.
I**n fact we don’t think it right to assign any of the Godly attributes or roles to any man, women, or institution. **
Attributes or roles like infallibly or sinless, or redemer or mediator or High Priest or all knowing … and BTW what does the word Vicar mean?

Infallibility is not a requirement of God’s chosen people ( the Jews) with God’s infallible Word contained in God’s inerrant Scripture.

Read Romans 14: it more than about food.

I**n fact we don’t think it right to assign any of the Godly attributes or roles to any man, women, or institution. **

Well, I think this is self contradictory on your part. Are you not doing this when you claim you can interpret the Bible yourself, unwittingly or not? Isn’t the ability you claim to interpret the Bible a Godly attribute, since you believe in your own interpretation?

 

[pablope]

So you are saying that the Catholic Church is the only authority when it comes to Scripture? I don’t believe that it is so. I do believe that God is indeed working in all Christians and I do not believe the Bible to be so cryptic that it cannot be understood by the layman.[/QUOT

Question:

*I do not believe the Bible to be so cryptic that it cannot be understood by the layman.

, if you believe this so, then why are there so many Protestant denominations that cannot agree on their various interpretations?

Just last night, I was listening to a podcast of a Protestant radio broadcast, there was a caller who was asking about sinning, that someone told him that if you continue to sin, you lose your connection with Jesus. The caller wanted to know if this was correct. Well, guess what, he was told this was a false gospel and you do not lose your salvation…( I lose the broadcast after that)…now, I ask you, who is right?

 

[tester]

I**n fact we don’t think it right to assign any of the Godly attributes or roles to any man, women, or institution. **

Well, I think this is self contradictory on your part. Are you not doing this when you claim you can interpret the Bible yourself, unwittingly or not? Isn’t the ability you claim to interpret the Bible a Godly attribute, since you believe in your own interpretation?

nope : not claiming that. I would never claim Godly attributes.

self contradictory

??

how about your circular reasoning? by claiming that Magisterium infallibly claims that the Bible inerrantly claims that the Magisterium is infallible.!!

Straight to the point : are you claiming that you do not or can not understand the Bible?

The problem is not with God’s Word; the problem is slothful,sloppy handling of God’s word -
2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

 

[tester]

Janet1983;7240078:

So you are saying that the Catholic Church is the only authority when it comes to Scripture? I don’t believe that it is so. I do believe that God is indeed working in all Christians and I do not believe the Bible to be so cryptic that it cannot be understood by the layman.[/QUOT

Question:

*I do not believe the Bible to be so cryptic that it cannot be understood by the layman.

, if you believe this so, then why are there so many Protestant denominations that cannot agree on their various interpretations?

Just last night, I was listening to a podcast of a Protestant radio broadcast, there was a caller who was asking about sinning, that someone told him that if you continue to sin, you lose your connection with Jesus. The caller wanted to know if this was correct. Well, guess what, he was told this was a false gospel and you do not lose your salvation…( I lose the broadcast after that)…now, I ask you, who is right?

What does the Bible say? Not what the person on the radio said, but what does the Bible cleary say?

 

[Janet1983]

Question:

I do not believe the Bible to be so cryptic that it cannot be understood by the layman., if you believe this so, then why are there so many Protestant denominations that cannot agree on their various interpretations?

Just last night, I was listening to a podcast of a Protestant radio broadcast, there was a caller who was asking about sinning, that someone told him that if you continue to sin, you lose your connection with Jesus. The caller wanted to know if this was correct. Well, guess what, he was told this was a false gospel and you do not lose your salvation…( I lose the broadcast after that)…now, I ask you, who is right?

I do believe that God is protecting His Church (all believers), but that we are all human and we may err. I do not believe that the Catholic Church is having an advantage in this, simply because I do not believe that the pope nor the magisterium can proclaim infallible teachings. The only infallibility I believe in is found in Scripture, the Word of God, and in God Himself.
You ask me who is right and I tell you that I will not be able to determine that infallibly. I will however be able to determine from Scripture and with plain reason what I believe. Unless I am convinced by these I will not believe.
I do not believe that Matthew 16:18 confers upon the pope the exclusive right to interpret scripture and therefore I do not believe the pope nor the magisterium to be infallible.
I will not act against my conscience.
I will however be obedient to the Word God has given in His Scriptures and I will serve my Lord, my God with all of my heart.

 

[rainman10]

Dear Big Fonts:
Protestants don’t claim** God’s** attribute of infallibly.
In fact we don’t think it right to assign any of the Godly attributes or roles to any man, women, or institution.
Attributes or roles like infallibly or sinless, or redemer or mediator or High Priest or all knowing … and BTW what does the word Vicar mean?

Infallibility is not a requirement of God’s chosen people ( the Jews) with God’s infallible Word contained in God’s inerrant Scripture.

Read Romans 14: it more than about food.

Are you not claiming that your interpretation of the Bible is the correct one? It supersedes the interpretation of Jesus Christ’s Church? I think that is a pretty bold attitude. Read the Bible. Does it name you as the pillar and foundation of truth, or the Jesus Christ’s Church?

I agree that infallibility is not a requirement of God’s chosen people, but it was an authority that was given to the Church.

And you still didn’t answer the question. If your interpretation of the Bible disagrees with ten other people, equally led by the Holy Spirit, who is right? Which one of the ten people is the Holy Spirit not lying to? Who decides who is right and who is wrong?

 

[rainman10]

The church founded by Jesus Christ circa AD 33 on Pentecost, and that church is the Catholic Church in union with the bishop of Rome. You will never ever get a direct answer like that from any non-Catholic, but it doesn’t hurt to keep asking; I do…

And I will keep asking. I know tester can’t really answer the question and he knows he can’t answer, because if he does, his theology goes down the drain. He will probably continue to avoid the question or disappear. His non-answers really gives us his answer.

 

[pablope]

nope : not claiming that. I would never claim Godly attributes.

??

how about your circular reasoning? by claiming that Magisterium infallibly claims that the Bible inerrantly claims that the Magisterium is infallible.!!

Straight to the point : are you claiming that you do not or can not understand the Bible?

The problem is not with God’s Word; the problem is slothful,sloppy handling of God’s word -
2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

how about your circular reasoning? by claiming that Magisterium infallibly claims that the Bible inerrantly claims that the Magisterium is infallible.!!
Circuitous? The way you put it is circuitous…

I do not claim I cannot understand the Bible…when there are parts that are hard to understand, I ask guidance from the Magisterium…so as to get the fullness of the message…to put it into its proper context…so as not to get mixed messages.

About sloppy handling of God’s word…so what do you do so as not to handle it sloppily or slothful? From the verse you quoted above…what is the fullness of the message? Should you not take into account the verses preceeding and after it…include the reason the epistle was written, to whom it was written for…and take into account the message of the whole epistle?

 

[pablope]

pablope;7240466:

What does the Bible say? Not what the person on the radio said, but what does the Bible cleary say?

I think the Catechism is clear…and I will not repeat it here…