Private Judgment and the Magisterium

[Janet1983]

Again the question will be-if you cannot, then who will? The Bible does not have a voice of its own, so who will speak for the Bible? to correctly answer the caller’s question? Who will give him the correct answer, as he got conflicting answers? Clearly, the caller got conflicting answers and is seeking the truth…did he go away confused or clear?

If your interpretation of the Bible disagrees with ten other people, equally led by the Holy Spirit, who is right? Which one of the ten people is the Holy Spirit not lying to? Who decides who is right and who is wrong?

The Holy Spirit never lies. It is us who choose not to listen or to count on our own strength. If we allow God to be honored in all that we do and if we confess our sins to Him, then we will be led by Him.
Even though we all might have different human opinions of what is right and what isn’t, we must not condemn each other. We might disagree, but we must strive for unity of our hearts.
I do believe that we will know one day, but as of right now we are looking through a mirror into a riddle. God id not clearly seen by human understanding.
We might try, but we are at a complete loss without Him. We fail if we rely on our own strength and that goes for each individual as much as it goes for the leadership of the Catholic Church. I God is our focus we might disagree in some points. We might even disagree in a lot of points. We will however still be united through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. If we focus on Him alone we will draw nearer to Him and nearer to each other.
I disagree with Catholics on a various number of issues, but I do consider the vast majority of Catholics on this board who are truly seeking after Him, Christians and therefore my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. I will continue to pray for unity even though I know that there already is a unity among believers.
I know that I am not perfect and I confess that I make mistakes on a regular basis. I say things I shouldn’t say. I thinks things I shouldn’t think. I get involved in fights I shouldn’t get involved in. And I know that my pride may get in my way sometimes. I don’t have anything I could offer you and all that I do have is from God and was never mine. Before God I am absolutely bare. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that I can do by myself. All I have is through Him and by Him and it is only by the blood of Jesus Christ that I can assume that He saved me. It is Him who took this wretched creature who I was and transformed it and He is continuing to transform me. From Him I accept all reward and all discipline.
I believe what I see in Scripture, but that does not exclude error on my part. I do not believe that this excludes error on anybody’s part.
Videmus nunc per speculum in aegnigmate…

 

[joe370]

Tester, you said:

Really ?Are you sure you are infallibly interpreting the Magisterium ?(

You seem to be implicitly claiming that catholics claim to be infallible; are you…?

We, as Christians belonging to the CC, interpret the teachings of the Magisterium just as we interpret the teachings found in the bible, and if our interpretations are wrong then the teaching office of the CC corrects us. We don’t interpret the teachings of the Magisterial office of the CC differently; we, as Paul commanded, defer to the authority of the church. One last time brother: if a member of the CC wants to disagree with the teachings of the CC they can, and they can leave the CC and find another church that conforms to their belief system, or they can stay and remain silent about their recalcitrant behavior, but the church cannot be held accountable if they don’t know; they cannot read minds.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=tester;7246766]a quick google of “mary our advocate” return many Catholic sites stateing some thing like…
all-about-the-virgin-mary.com/mary-advocate.html

The Son will Grant All that His Mother Asks

…Mary’s power is greater than all the saints combined, for as Queen Mother and Advocate,** her Son Jesus refuses her nothing**. In the Church-approved Revelations of Our Lord to St.Bridget, St. Bridget heard Jesus say to His mother: “Ask of me what thou wilt, for no petition of thine can be void.”

In the wedding feast of Cana, Jesus, in a dramatic way, gave a concrete, tangible proof to Mary’s role as Advocate and Mediatrix, by granting Mary’s request to turn the water into wine.

It is impossible for the Son to refuse the Mother anything, because everything that the Mother asks for from the Son is always in conformity with His will. Mary is the masterpiece of the Holy Spirit: her union with God is so perfect, so much so that her entire will, her mind, and her heart are always in conformity with the will, mind and heart of God.

Ok Everthing here says that the BVM is so in line with what God wants that she equest nothing that would be contary to his will. Nothing come directly from her, but from God thruough her request.

and here:
catholictradition.org/Mary/glories6.htm#38

At the command of Mary all obey, even God.

She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son

Does the Magisterium agree with that?[/FONT

That I do not know I have never heard A preist or bishop say anything that gives omnipotence to Mary. To Get your answer you should ask the Church. One thing I can say is if you take what we do know the Church teaches in the Mary never request anything that is in conflict with the will of God and the statement says that her omniptence comes form God (the Son) That it is not by her own power that she is so But By the grace that God has Blessed with.

But teaster why instead of answering question do you continue to make accusations and then not even respond with acknowledge ment that it was addressed?

The one thing I have learned is that nothing stands alone. This goes for the teaching of the Church, Scripture, and Tradition. you can not isolate one verse of scripture and make a stance it has to be taken into the contest of what is written around is what the Church as always taught and what the Traditions are. Take the blinders off. quit looking at things with tunnel vission a zeroing in on just one statement. Look at the whole picture.

For example with the last of the quotes you last posted, again I have never heard these things nor do I know anything about the site that you got them from, never the less. you have to look at what the Churhc teaches about God that we do know
A) There is but one God.
B) That God is 3, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
C) That God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient.

Does God granting one of his charactorisics (om(name removed by moderator)otent in the case of the above quote) to someone else as it being alinged with his will take from God anything. or does it added to our understanding of what life in heaven will be.
[/quote]

 

[joe370]

Hey tester…Here is that quote from that link:

*He has supreme dominion over all and also over Mary; nevertheless, it can always be said that for a time at least, when He was living in this world, He was pleased to humble himself and be subject to Mary. Says St. Ambrose, Jesus Christ having deigned to make Mary His Mother, inasmuch as He was her Son, He was truly obliged to obey her. And for this reason, says Richard of St. Laurence, "Of other Saints we say that they are with God; but of Mary alone can it be said that she was so far favored as to be not only herself submissive to the will of God, but even that God was subject to her will.

Therefore we say that, even though Mary can no longer command her Son, since they are not on earth any more, still her prayers are always the prayers of a Mother and are therefore most powerful in obtaining whatever she asks.

At the command of Mary all obey, even God."*

If “At the command of Mary all obey, even God” is saying what you think it is saying then why did he say, just prior to that, the following:

Therefore we say that, even though Mary can no longer command her Son, since they are not on earth any more,

Clearly something is getting lost in the translation.

I totally agree with the following:

*“It is impossible for the Son to refuse the Mother anything because everything that the Mother asks for from the Son is always in conformity with His will. Mary is the masterpiece of the Holy Spirit: her union with God is so perfect, so much so that her entire will, her mind, and her heart are always in conformity with the will, mind and heart of God.”

“She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son.”*

Everything our blessed mother Mary is, and does, as the heavenly queen, comes from the power of God alone. Mary is not the source of that power; God works through Mary, whose will is in perfect harmony and conformity with God.

a quick google of “mary our advocate” return many Catholic sites stateing some thing like…
all-about-the-virgin-mary.com/mary-advocate.html

The Son will Grant All that His Mother Asks

…Mary’s power is greater than all the saints combined, for as Queen Mother and Advocate,** her Son Jesus refuses her nothing**. In the Church-approved Revelations of Our Lord to St.Bridget, St. Bridget heard Jesus say to His mother: “Ask of me what thou wilt, for no petition of thine can be void.”

In the wedding feast of Cana, Jesus, in a dramatic way, gave a concrete, tangible proof to Mary’s role as Advocate and Mediatrix, by granting Mary’s request to turn the water into wine.

It is impossible for the Son to refuse the Mother anything, because everything that the Mother asks for from the Son is always in conformity with His will. Mary is the masterpiece of the Holy Spirit: her union with God is so perfect, so much so that her entire will, her mind, and her heart are always in conformity with the will, mind and heart of God.

and here:
catholictradition.org/Mary/glories6.htm#38

At the command of Mary all obey, even God.

She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son

Does the Magisterium agree with that?

 

[tester]

Joe370: please clarify: are you saying you believe this to be true?

“She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son.”
-St. Alfonsus Liguori,
Saint Alphonsus Liguori (September 27, 1696 – August 1, 1787) was an Italian Catholic Bishop, spiritual writer, theologian, and founder of the Redemptorists, an influential religious order. He was canonized in 1839 by Pope Gregory XVI and declared a Doctor of the Church.

 

[tester]

joe370:

in post #91 you accused me of repeating a lie:

Would it be ok if repeated the quotes from the Catholic sources in post 95?

** If anyone says that the sacrifice of the mass is one only of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross but not a propitiatory **one; or that it profits him only who receives, and ought not to be offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities, **let him be anathema **(Council of Trent, session 22, canon 3).

The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ…The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross because the offering and the priest are the same - Christ our Blessed Lord; and the ends for which the sacrifice of the Mass is offered are the same as those of the sacrifice of the Cross…The ends for which the sacrifice of the Cross was offered were to honor and glorify God; to thank Him for all the graces bestowed on the whole world; to satisfy God’s justice for the sins of men; to obtain all graces and blessings (Baltimore Catechism).

As often as the Sacrifice of the Cross in which ‘Christ, our Passover, has **been sacrificed’ (1 Corinthians. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar (i.e. during the mass), **the work of our redemption is carried on (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church).

The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1366).

The august sacrifice of the altar, then, is no mere empty commemoration of the passion and death of Jesus Christ, **but a true and proper act of sacrifice, whereby the High Priest by an unbloody immolation offers Himself a most acceptable victim to the Eternal Father, as He did upon the cross **(Mediator Dei, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII)

It is a good idea to recall at the very outset what may be termed the heart and core of the doctrine, namely that, by means of the Mystery of the Eucharist, **the Sacrifice of the Cross which was once carried out on Calvary is re-enacted in wonderful fashion and is constantly recalled, and its salvific power is applied to the forgiving of the sins we commit each day **(Mysterium Fidei; Encyclical of Pope Paul VI).

 

[pablope]

The Holy Spirit never lies. It is us who choose not to listen or to count on our own strength. If we allow God to be honored in all that we do and if we confess our sins to Him, then we will be led by Him.
Even though we all might have different human opinions of what is right and what isn’t, we must not condemn each other. We might disagree, but we must strive for unity of our hearts.
I do believe that we will know one day, but as of right now we are looking through a mirror into a riddle. God id not clearly seen by human understanding.
We might try, but we are at a complete loss without Him. We fail if we rely on our own strength and that goes for each individual as much as it goes for the leadership of the Catholic Church. I God is our focus we might disagree in some points. We might even disagree in a lot of points. We will however still be united through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. If we focus on Him alone we will draw nearer to Him and nearer to each other.
I disagree with Catholics on a various number of issues, but I do consider the vast majority of Catholics on this board who are truly seeking after Him, Christians and therefore my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. I will continue to pray for unity even though I know that there already is a unity among believers.
I know that I am not perfect and I confess that I make mistakes on a regular basis. I say things I shouldn’t say. I thinks things I shouldn’t think. I get involved in fights I shouldn’t get involved in. And I know that my pride may get in my way sometimes. I don’t have anything I could offer you and all that I do have is from God and was never mine. Before God I am absolutely bare. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that I can do by myself. All I have is through Him and by Him and it is only by the blood of Jesus Christ that I can assume that He saved me. It is Him who took this wretched creature who I was and transformed it and He is continuing to transform me. From Him I accept all reward and all discipline.
I believe what I see in Scripture, but that does not exclude error on my part. I do not believe that this excludes error on anybody’s part.
Videmus nunc per speculum in aegnigmate…

Janet…

Let us go back to the original caller situation:

Just last night, I was listening to a podcast of a Protestant radio broadcast, there was a caller who was asking about sinning, that someone told him that if you continue to sin, you lose your connection with Jesus. The caller wanted to know if this was correct. Well, guess what, he was told this was a false gospel and you do not lose your salvation…( I lose the broadcast after that)…now, I ask you, who is right?
Reply With Quote

Obviously, he is confused and conflicted…that is why he made the call on radio asking for help…he reads the Bible, but obviously, there is a conflict in him-competing interpretations…his friend, the radio commentator, his own understanding…he is searching for the right answer, and obviously, his private interpretation is not working…so where should the caller get it…who will give it to him…you admitted you cannot, Tester (the OP) also claims he is fallible, not me either…who or where will be the authority who will settle his conflict, and set the caller on the right path? Who will infallibly settle the conflict?

You said: I do believe that we will know one day, but as of right now we are looking through a mirror into a riddle. God id not clearly seen by human understanding.
We might try, but we are at a complete loss without Him.

So my other question to you is: How will we clearly understand God that we will not be at a complete loss, that He is not a riddle? God already revealed himself through Jesus…so that He will not be a mystery, is it not? So, where is that full understanding contained? Isn’t there already an authority here on earth to has the full revelation of Gods’ teachings?

And isn’t this authority available to all of us…to settle the caller’s conflicting interpretations…to help you and me fully understand God that he is not a riddle…where we could go for guidance when we need help?

 

[joe370]

Tester, the sacrifice of the Mass is not repeated; Jesus is not sacrificed over and over, repeatedly for the simple fact that Jesus is in heaven, or, where ever he wants to be; it’s the same flesh and blood of Calvary that is re-presented at the Mass, under the veil of bread and wine. I repeat, Jesus is not repeatedly sacrificed over and over and over…That’s just silly…

joe370:

in post #91 you accused me of repeating a lie:

Would it be ok if repeated the quotes from the Catholic sources in post 95?

** If anyone says that the sacrifice of the mass is one only of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross but not a propitiatory **one; or that it profits him only who receives, and ought not to be offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities, **let him be anathema **(Council of Trent, session 22, canon 3).

The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ…The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross because the offering and the priest are the same - Christ our Blessed Lord; and the ends for which the sacrifice of the Mass is offered are the same as those of the sacrifice of the Cross…The ends for which the sacrifice of the Cross was offered were to honor and glorify God; to thank Him for all the graces bestowed on the whole world; to satisfy God’s justice for the sins of men; to obtain all graces and blessings (Baltimore Catechism).

As often as the Sacrifice of the Cross in which ‘Christ, our Passover, has **been sacrificed’ (1 Corinthians. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar (i.e. during the mass), **the work of our redemption is carried on (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church).

The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1366).

The august sacrifice of the altar, then, is no mere empty commemoration of the passion and death of Jesus Christ, **but a true and proper act of sacrifice, whereby the High Priest by an unbloody immolation offers Himself a most acceptable victim to the Eternal Father, as He did upon the cross **(Mediator Dei, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII)

It is a good idea to recall at the very outset what may be termed the heart and core of the doctrine, namely that, by means of the Mystery of the Eucharist, **the Sacrifice of the Cross which was once carried out on Calvary is re-enacted in wonderful fashion and is constantly recalled, and its salvific power is applied to the forgiving of the sins we commit each day **(Mysterium Fidei; Encyclical of Pope Paul VI).

 

[jphilapy]

Recent threads are filled with Catholics asking Protestants “how do you know …” or " who decides when …"

So now this is a Protestant asking how do Catholics know that they interpreted the Magisterium statements correctly?

Ask the Mageisterium. Since protestants cant ask the apostles that puts catholics and protestants on different footing.

All protestants have their church as their interpretive authority. So which interpretive authority is more reliable? A pastor who may or may not agree with all other pastors and who has 20 years of experience? Or a Magisterium that has a unified teaching and can draw from 2000 years of Magisterium? Scripture says there is wisdom in councils. Protestantism says there is wisdom in sinful human beings.

Do you see the difference?