Private Prayer after Communion Introverted?

[rosarywarrior]

I also kneel and pray after receiving Communion. I thought that the GIRM also states that we may kneel, stand or sit. Its funny how different diocese’s interpret that part. Across the river from us, they kneel in silent prayer. It was explained to me by their parish priest that in America, the norm was to kneel and since that had been the norm, they weren’t going to change it now. In my parish, we are a total mess, some stand, some sit, some kneel. I have found that as I am kneeling and praying, most of those sitting or standing are NOT singing but talking out loud to each other. I guess they have to talk loud in order to hear each other over the choir. VERY disrespectful and distracting. When we all knelt before the change, it was much quieter. I know we are to see Jesus in each other, sometimes its hard but one thing I do know, I will NEVER bow down and adore the next person in the pew as I would Jesus…so there is a difference!

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Deacon Ed,

It is when the body tells the toe that he is no longer a toe just part of the body is what I am getting at.

Ah, but the Church tesll us this is not what we are saying! The problem comes when we put our own theology ahead of that of the Church. Communal singing is, indeed, a way in which we, as a body, speak to Christ and the reality of Him present among us in a very special way – as Pope Paul VI puts it, a “presence par excellence!”

decn2b:

Redemption is PERSONAL. I am Certain that I am only accountable for MY sins. I am not big into cooporate sin.

You might want to discuss this with your spiritual director. Corporate sin is real, and is something that we need to be aware of. However, the Church still teaches that we are saved “in community” and not, as the Protestants claim, individually. Redemption is not personal. In fact, such a claim is heretical! Redemption is the act of Jesus in His death and resurrection that makes possible salvation for all. (Note that I am not advocating universal salvation – the apokatastasis – but rather the offer of salvation that is made to all). In the Deacon’s great chant at the Easter Vigil, the Exsultet, we recall the sin of Adam: “O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!” Note it did not gain “me” a Redeemer but “us.”

decn2b:

Jesus the pascal Lamb was not sacrificed for all of our sins thrown into a big pot together…his sacrifice is applied to our individual sins (which may or may not make up corporate sin).

Again, not so. Jesus died, as Scripture tells us, “once for all” (Heb 7:27). This is made even more explicit here: “By this ‘will,’ we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Heb 10:10)

decn2b:

My relationship with Jesus is the first step I can take…that has to be a personal step. If I do not make that personal step then I am really not part of the community. I agree this is not an either or but it does seem like when we reduce the worship ( remember lex orandi lex credendi) to a mere communal gathering shoving off any personal essence of it, we are reducing the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Which is the whole core of its existance. The sacrifice is applied to our INDIVIDUAL SINS.

In a sense you are correct – the sacrifice is applied to us as members of the Body! That’s what St. Paul tells us in Romans: “Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.” (Rom 6:3-5) We are the Body of Christ and it is only as members of the Body that we can be saved! It is not as individuals (unless, of course, you are forgiving your own sins).

decn2b:

When we have over-emphasis of the coroporate in our worship…it tends to move us laterally and horizontally in our focus. And that focus is subordinate to the vertical nature Mass. The focuse is on God, and his relationship to us as individuals first and displayed by our relationships with others. The spectacular gift of uniqueness is in every human being. We are made in the image of god and given the gift of individuality. This the greatest aspect of our individuality is the free will of each and every human being. This free will is a personal matter first and it relates to Jesus in our individuality first… which then may or may not affect others directly. Remember Jesus died for our individual sins and our particular judgement is alone and personal.

But it is the Church who regulates the Liturgy (which term comes from the Greek words laos meaning “people” and ergon meaning work – that is, the “work of the people”). When we follow the directions of the Church we are working in harmony with the Body – when we reject them, when we fight them, when we refuse to go along with them – then we are outside the Body and our salvation is at risk!

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

I understand how Jesus unites us and that we celebrate communion as one body.

That’s wonderful!

scylla:

Yet above that is Jesus who in addition to that is truly present. Since Jesus is truly present then I first give my attention to Him then to the rest of the body worshipping with me. It is not just me and Jesus but Jesus and us, but if I do not pay extra attention to Him it becomes us as Jesus which is true but secondary.

Nobody said you weren’t supposed to do just that! But to do that and ignore the rest of the Body of Christ is, in fact, to turn your back on Jesus who is reqally present in all who have received communion, and in exactly the same way!

This is like Jesus walking in the door and saying “peace be with you” and I look around to everyone and say hi to everyone else around me.
What do you think?

I disagree. The Church says the only way we can love God is to love our neighbor – and that includes after communion when they, as we, are literally temples of Jesus present among us!

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Just to follow up on John’s post regarding the GIRM, here’s another:

1. While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the “communitarian” nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful. If, however, there is to be a hymn after Communion, the Communion chant should be ended in a timely manner.

We sing as we receive communion. After communion we may “sit or kneel” (GIRM 43). Note that this paragraph does suggest a period of “sacred silence” following communion.

If, however, there is a communion song, there is to be a period of sacred silence (GIRM 165) before the Prayer After Communion (which closes the communion rite). This is the time for individual prayer.

Deacon Ed

 

[rosarywarrior]

I disagree. The Church says the only way we can love God is to love our neighbor – and that includes after communion when they, as we, are literally temples of Jesus present among us!

Deacon Ed

Actually we are to Love God will all our heart, all our mind, all our strength and THEN love our neighbor as ourselves. You’ve have to love GOD first because if you love HIM then you will be able to love your neighbor as God would want you to love them.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Actually we are to Love God will all our heart, all our mind, all our strength and THEN love our neighbor as ourselves. You’ve have to love GOD first because if you love HIM then you will be able to love your neighbor as God would want you to love them.

Actually, they are both to happen simultaneously! God calls to us with His love and our response must be to love Him and to love His creation – which includes our neighbor. It’s not one first then the other, but both at the same time.

The Catechism sums it up this way: “CHARITY: The theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.” (1822) We cannot say we are loving God if we turn our back on our neighbor – for that is simply not possible. How this is done is put into context in paragraph 1823: “Jesus makes charity the new commandment. By loving his own ‘to the end,’ he makes manifest the Father’s love which he receives. By loving one anotehr, the disciples imitate the love of jesus which they themselves receive. Whence Jesus says: ‘As the Father has loved me, so have I lvoed you; abide in my love.’ And again: ‘This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.’”

Finally, 1827: “The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which ‘binds everything together in perfect harmony’; it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and rasies it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.”

It is not one first, then the other – but all together in harmony!

Deacon Ed

 

[Walking_Home]

This question was asked in Ask the Apologist forum. Here is Fr. Serpa’s answer.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=121514

Dear Mairegal,

Such a statement betrays a lack of understanding of what prayer is in general and of what Holy Communion is in particular. To be introverted is to be turned into one’s self. Prayer, if it is true prayer, is all about God. When we receive the Holy Eucharist we are physically aware of His divine visitation. It is a time of the holiest of communions in which we are most intimately united with each other because of our union with Him.

Often we hear liturgists insisting that we sing at such times to show our communion with each other—when HE is the source of such union and not such feeble attempts to ape the real thing. By ALL MEANS acknowledge the divine Presence within your roof. Nothing matters more—absolutely nothing!

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

 

[AlexV]

Lilburne’s magisterial pronouncement that it is “wrong” for someone to kneel in prayer after Communion is incorrect.

The Church does not scrupulously mandate posture for people! Let’s remember that! The liturgy has flexibility for legitimate and CUSTOMARY acts of reverence and, yes, piety and prayer at Mass, especially after Communion.

It is not “wrong” not to stand and sing.

Sheesh…enough with the hyperrubricism. The liturgy isn’t codified down to the last breath.

 

[palmas85]

Ah, but the Church tesll us this is not what we are saying! The problem comes when we put our own theology ahead of that of the Church. Communal singing is, indeed, a way in which we, as a body, speak to Christ and the reality of Him present among us in a very special way – as Pope Paul VI puts it, a “presence par excellence!”

You might want to discuss this with your spiritual director. Corporate sin is real, and is something that we need to be aware of. However, the Church still teaches that we are saved “in community” and not, as the Protestants claim, individually. Redemption is not personal. In fact, such a claim is heretical! Redemption is the act of Jesus in His death and resurrection that makes possible salvation for all. (Note that I am not advocating universal salvation – the apokatastasis – but rather the offer of salvation that is made to all). In the Deacon’s great chant at the Easter Vigil, the Exsultet, we recall the sin of Adam: “O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!” Note it did not gain “me” a Redeemer but “us.”

Again, not so. Jesus died, as Scripture tells us, “once for all” (Heb 7:27). This is made even more explicit here: “By this ‘will,’ we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Heb 10:10)

In a sense you are correct – the sacrifice is applied to us as members of the Body! That’s what St. Paul tells us in Romans: “Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.” (Rom 6:3-5) We are the Body of Christ and it is only as members of the Body that we can be saved! It is not as individuals (unless, of course, you are forgiving your own sins).

But it is the Church who regulates the Liturgy (which term comes from the Greek words laos meaning “people” and ergon meaning work – that is, the “work of the people”). When we follow the directions of the Church we are working in harmony with the Body – when we reject them, when we fight them, when we refuse to go along with them – then we are outside the Body and our salvation is at risk!

Deacon Ed

Deacon you’ve made a great argument, I can see that you have a great handle on things, but you have completely managed to sidestep one salient and incontrvertable fact… The sins that I commit are not the same sins as those committed by my neighbor, except those through complicity, assistance etc. He is not responsible for my sins any more than I am for his except in certain fairly clearly defined situations. It was always my understanding that when I go to confession for absolution, that I confess MY sins which are unique to me. The absolution and forgiveness that I receive are mine alone. When I die, and face judgement, what will I be judged on? How my particular community and I interacted and worshipped, or will I be judged on my own life, merits and defects?.

While I understand and appreciate what you are saying, salvation, while communal in that Christ died for all, and true we are all members of the Body of Christ, we all also have free will, and sin on our own. thus offending God.

The Church has never, at least that I know of prohibited anyone from approaching God on his own even while within the context of a Liturgical celebration. True communal worship is critical, and I would never say it isn’t, but so too. is private devotion and prayer.

 

[KatieD]

I have never heard of returning to a pew and standing and singing. My parish doesn’t even have pews or kneelers - we have chairs (at this point anyway), and when we return from receiving the Eucharist, we sit or kneel at our seats and pray. The choir may be singing as others continue receiving, and some people may join in the singing, but they are seated or kneeling after Holy Communion.

 

[rosarywarrior]

Actually, they are both to happen simultaneously! God calls to us with His love and our response must be to love Him and to love His creation – which includes our neighbor. It’s not one first then the other, but both at the same time. Deacon Ed

OK Deacon Ed. what you say is true BUT we are struggling sinners with many faults. I will not bow down to my neighbor and adore him or her as they too have sins and are not perfect either. It is only Jesus that I will adore and especially after I have received him. Walking_Home’s post makes point most clear.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Deacon you’ve made a great argument, I can see that you have a great handle on things, but you have completely managed to sidestep one salient and incontrvertable fact… The sins that I commit are not the same sins as those committed by my neighbor, except those through complicity, assistance etc. He is not responsible for my sins any more than I am for his except in certain fairly clearly defined situations. It was always my understanding that when I go to confession for absolution, that I confess MY sins which are unique to me. The absolution and forgiveness that I receive are mine alone. When I die, and face judgement, what will I be judged on? How my particular community and I interacted and worshipped, or will I be judged on my own life, merits and defects?.

While I understand and appreciate what you are saying, salvation, while communal in that Christ died for all, and true we are all members of the Body of Christ, we all also have free will, and sin on our own. thus offending God.

The Church has never, at least that I know of prohibited anyone from approaching God on his own even while within the context of a Liturgical celebration. True communal worship is critical, and I would never say it isn’t, but so too. is private devotion and prayer.

I didn’t address the issue of personal sin becuase it is not relevant to the discussion at hand. I did touch on it tangentially but only because of the issue of salvation and its nature.

It is certainly true that there is both a need for private devotion and for communal worship. That, too, is not the issue. The question was whether or not it was appropriate to sing after communion when one would prefer to kneel and pray privately.

I have addressed opinions that have been expressed that are contrary to the teachings and disciplines of the Church, and have supplied the citations for my statements. None of us “owns” the Mass. The Mass belongs (if such a thing is possible) to the Church and we are all servants of the Mass. In the Eastern tradition we say that theclergy “serve” the Liturgy, and indeed that is true in the West as well. We are to follow the rubrics and the directives in the GIRM – and have every right to expect that the clergy will offer a Liturgy that is in conformance with those directives.

At the same time, all of us, lay or cleric, are bound to follow those same directives. There are (or should be) times for private prayer following communion. Either immediately after communion (if there is no song) or in the silence before the Prayer after Communion. It is during that silence that we have our “private time” with Jesus.

BTW, Pope Paul VI explained why private devotion should never take place during Mass – so that issue is really moot in this discussion as well.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

OK Deacon Ed. what you say is true BUT we are struggling sinners with many faults. I will not bow down to my neighbor and adore him or her as they too have sins and are not perfect either. It is only Jesus that I will adore and especially after I have received him. Walking_Home’s post makes point most clear.

Well, in one sense I agree with you. But if Christ is really present in that person, then I must honor His presence and not ignore him, either. There is only one perfect human being and that is Jesus Himself (although Mary comes close, she still inherited the common fallen nature of all mankind).

Deacon Ed

 

[rosarywarrior]

There is only one perfect human being and that is Jesus Himself (although Mary comes close, she still inherited the common fallen nature of all mankind).
Deacon Ed

And I thought she was Immaculately Conceived. Saved by God before she was born.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

And I thought she was Immaculately Conceived. Saved by God before she was born.

Anticipatory redemption (the term used by Scotus and Ware) has nothing to do with her receiving our fallen nature. She was without sin, but she had a fallen nature. She simply was saved “in anticipation” of what she was to accomplish in salvation history through her fiat.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Deacon you’ve made a great argument, I can see that you have a great handle on things, but you have completely managed to sidestep one salient and incontrvertable fact… The sins that I commit are not the same sins as those committed by my neighbor, except those through complicity, assistance etc. He is not responsible for my sins any more than I am for his except in certain fairly clearly defined situations. It was always my understanding that when I go to confession for absolution, that I confess MY sins which are unique to me. The absolution and forgiveness that I receive are mine alone. When I die, and face judgement, what will I be judged on? How my particular community and I interacted and worshipped, or will I be judged on my own life, merits and defects?.

One point I should have made is that although you confess your sins – they are sins that affect the entire Body of Christ. No one can sin in isolation of the Body! St. Paul makes that very clear in his First Letter to the Corinthians where he offers a rather earthy example:

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take Christ’s members and make them the members of a prostitute? Of course not! (Or) do you not know that anyone who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For “the two,” it says, “will become one flesh.” But whoever is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Avoid immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the immoral person sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple * of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body.

We have to understand that the use of the metaphor of “The Body” is not really a metaphor at all – it is reality. If one member of the Body of Christ has AIDS then the Body of Christ has AIDS. If one member sins we are all affected by that sin!

This is why we go to confession to a priest. He forgives, not only on behalf of God, but as a representative of the Body of Christ he forgives on our behalf as well.

Deacon Ed

 

[gelsbern]

I miss the days when everyone was on their knees until the tabernacle was closed and the priest was seated, and to this day, when for whatever reason I am at a Catholic church, I stay on my knees, even though don’t receive, I stay kneeling until the purification is complete, and the priest is sitting.

Stay on your knees and offer your thanksgiving. The Communal part is Communion itself when we all recieve the sacrament Eucharist in memory of our Lord together. The idea that every part of the mass must be totally communal is ridiculous and a result of modernism.

Before the confetior there is supposed to be a pause so that one can silently recollect ones sins. During the prayers of the people, there is supposed to be a time when one can silently bring to mind their own prayer intentions. If they are going to do away with being able to give a private thanksgiving silently after receiving communion, why not do away with those other two things? Everyone should shout out their sins, and their prayer intentions,.

Finally with the fact that as soon as the final hymn is done, and everyone starts chattering away like they are leaving a sporting event for at least 1/2 hour or longer before the Church is silent, it’s difficult to offer a thanksgiving for what you have just recieved since it’s probably been 40 minutes since you received it.

Keep to offering your thanksgiving, and join in with the singing when you are ready.

 

[scylla]

Deacon Ed…

Are you talking about Pope Paul VI and Mysterium Fidei?

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_03091965_mysterium_en.html

God Bless
Scylla

 

[SORROWS]

What has been announced in my area is that we parishioners all remain standing until all have recieved …
This has made me terribly sad because I notice that people don’t have a chance to pray after receiving Our Lord. I find it hard to pray standing as well as I do kneeling. Communion is what I anticipate and it’s when I feel the greatest amount of comfort from Our Lord.

For some people, this is the ONLY real time in the week where they pray and I feel it’s kind of lost. I admire their obediance but feel something is wrong with this.

I simply prefer to receive Our Lord and go to my knees in devotion.

 

[the_phoenix]

Was Pope John Paul II an introvert?

Here’s what he had to say:

“Closeness to the Eucharistic Christ in silence and contemplation does not distance us from our contemporaries but, on the contrary, makes us open to human joy and distress, broadening our hearts on a global scale. Through adoration the Christian mysteriously contributes to the radical transformation of the world and to the sowing of the gospel. Anyone who prays to the Eucharistic Savior draws the whole world with him and raises it to God.”

  (Letter to the Bishop of Liege, Reported in L'Osserv. Romano, 1996)

therealpresence.org/johnpaul.htm

SANTO SUBITO!



~~ the phoenix