Private Prayer after Communion Introverted?

[Deacon_Ed]

I was told that our individual sins do affect the world and community in a supernatural way. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, is it OK to assume that our individual sins do in fact affect outside others in a supernatural way?

Please help

You were told correctly. Keith cited the appropriate passage from the Catechism above.

Deacon Ed

 

[Walking_Home]

I was told that our individual sins do affect the world and community in a supernatural way. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, is it OK to assume that our individual sins do in fact affect outside others in a supernatural way?

Please help

---

I have been trying to track that down in the CCC. What I have been able to find is that when we sin against God–we separate ourselves from Him. At the same time we separate ourselves from the Church—the Body of Christ. When our sin affects others is when they co-operate with our sin or when our sin directly hurts another person.

 

[Keith_Strohm]

---

I have been trying to track that down in the CCC. What I have been able to find is that when we sin against God–we separate ourselves from Him. At the same time we separate ourselves from the Church—the Body of Christ. When our sin affects others is when they co-operate with our sin or when our sin directly hurts another person.

Walking_Home,

Check my post above…it has the relevant citation from the CCC.

In Christ,

Keith

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home,

Check my post above…it has the relevant citation from the CCC.

In Christ,

Keith

---

Yes —I am familiar with CCC 1469. It does not really answer how our sins affect another in a supernatural way. What I have found in the CCC–is that our sin may affect another. Sin separates us from God and within this the Church. We sin personally–but our sin can also affect others . When someone steals from another–the sin is a personal offense against God and also an offense against the person who was stolen from. Also–when someone is in the process of committing a sin and another who knows does nothing to stop or prevent the sin—this is co-operation—they both sin.

The sacrament reconciles us to God and to the Church. Penance restores the break–the separation. The sacrament restores us to God and to anyone who we may have offended.

1468 "The whole power of the sacrament of Penance consists in restoring us to God’s grace and joining us with him in an intimate friendship."73 Reconciliation with God is thus the purpose and effect of this sacrament…

 

[John_Lilburne]

---

Look----I posted the dubium in response to whether private prayer when we return to our seats is allowed.

Not to change the topic of this thread—but since the Church says that people can indeed kneel or sit or stand when they return from receiving Holy Communion—kneeling is in no way a deviation.

The kneeling is a deviation, because the Church does not say “that people can indeed kneel or sit or stand when they return from receiving Holy Communion”.

Here is what the Church does say: “… and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.” (From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html ).

It wrong to suggest that the “period of sacred silence after Communion” begins when there is singing. There is not silence if the priest is saying “The body of Christ” to people.

As I posted above, the Ceremonial of Bishops is indicating that everyone sits when the bishop sits, for his Stational Mass.

“166 When the bishop returns to the chair after communion, he puts on the skullcap and, if need be, washes his hands. All are seated and a period of prayerful silence may follow, or a song of praise or a psalm may be sung.”
Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 60.

The Latin title of this book is Caeremoniale Episcoporum.
Its instructions remain relevant, even though the GIRM has been published more recently, because the 2002 GIRM includes:
"112. … At a Mass celebrated by the Bishop or at which he presides without celebrating the Eucharist, the norms found in the Caeremoniale Episcoporum should be observed.

Everyone having the same posture in this way is consistent with 2002 GIRM n. 42: “A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”

 

[Walking_Home]

The kneeling is a deviation, because the Church does not say “that people can indeed kneel or sit or stand when they return from receiving Holy Communion”.

Here is what the Church does say: “… and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.” (From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html ).

It wrong to suggest that the “period of sacred silence after Communion” begins when there is singing. There is not silence if the priest is saying “The body of Christ” to people.

As I posted above, the Ceremonial of Bishops is indicating that everyone sits when the bishop sits, for his Stational Mass.

“166 When the bishop returns to the chair after communion, he puts on the skullcap and, if need be, washes his hands. All are seated and a period of prayerful silence may follow, or a song of praise or a psalm may be sung.”
Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 60.

The Latin title of this book is Caeremoniale Episcoporum.
Its instructions remain relevant, even though the GIRM has been published more recently, because the 2002 GIRM includes:
"112. … At a Mass celebrated by the Bishop or at which he presides without celebrating the Eucharist, the norms found in the Caeremoniale Episcoporum should be observed.

Everyone having the same posture in this way is consistent with 2002 GIRM n. 42: “A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”

---

Then–someone better notify Card. Arinze that he does not speak for the Church.

adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html

Holy See Affirms Customary Kneeling During Communion Rite

Concerning the practice of kneeling after receiving Holy Communion, Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the Committee on the Liturgy, submitted a dubium [question] to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments [CDW] on May 26, 2003:

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typical tertia, to forbid this practice?

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem (No, for this reason). The mens [reason] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, not to regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

 

[Keith_Strohm]

---

Yes —I am familiar with CCC 1469. It does not really answer how our sins affect another in a supernatural way. What I have found in the CCC–is that our sin may affect another. Sin separates us from God and within this the Church. We sin personally–but our sin can also affect others . When someone steals from another–the sin is a personal offense against God and also an offense against the person who was stolen from. Also–when someone is in the process of committing a sin and another who knows does nothing to stop or prevent the sin—this is co-operation—they both sin.

The sacrament reconciles us to God and to the Church. Penance restores the break–the separation. The sacrament restores us to God and to anyone who we may have offended.

1468 "The whole power of the sacrament of Penance consists in restoring us to God’s grace and joining us with him in an intimate friendship."73 Reconciliation with God is thus the purpose and effect of this sacrament…

Walking_Home,

If you check the footnote to 1469 it references 1Cor 12:26

If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

The Catechism alone isn’t a great tool for delving into the theology behind Church teaching, but since it references the reality of the Mystical Body of Christ, it would seem that our union to each other through Christ is how our sin affects another–and not just those who co-operate with our sin.

While 1468 highlights our restoration with God, 1469 details a bit more what that restoration is like. Since we are united through Christ, our restoration with God necessitates a restoration with the Church (there is no separation between God and the Church), and not just to ecclesial communion. Since each sin weakens and stains the whole Church, Reconciliation restores and revitalizes the life of the Body.

Hope this helps.

Keith

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home,

If you check the footnote to 1469 it references 1Cor 12:26

Quote:

The Catechism alone isn’t a great tool for delving into the theology behind Church teaching, but since it references the reality of the Mystical Body of Christ, it would seem that our union to each other through Christ is how our sin affects another–and not just those who co-operate with our sin.

While 1468 highlights our restoration with God, 1469 details a bit more what that restoration is like. Since we are united through Christ, our restoration with God necessitates a restoration with the Church (there is no separation between God and the Church), and not just to ecclesial communion. Since each sin weakens and stains the whole Church, Reconciliation restores and revitalizes the life of the Body.

Hope this helps.

Keith

Quote=Keith Strohm
All sin hurts the entire body. It fractures communion and stains all of its members.​

I understand that. When one is in sin—we are separated from God and His Church—the unity between the person and the Body of Christ is broken. What is not being shown is how one persons sin stains all of its members.

 

[John_Lilburne]

---

Then–someone better notify Card. Arinze that he does not speak for the Church.

I think someone has.

He wrote on 12 October 2006:

“… 4. Paragraph 279 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal directs that the sacred vessels are to be purified by the priest, the deacon or an instituted acolyte. The status of this text as legislation has recently been clarified by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. It does not seem feasible, therefore, for the Congregation to grant the requested indult from this directive in the general law of the Latin Church. …”

The full letter is at jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/cdw_on_purifica.html .

Perhaps what the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts has recently ruled is that he does not have the authority to change what is in the liturgical books. This is consistent with the Code of Canon Law, 846: “The liturgical books, approved by the competent authority, are to be faithfully followed in the celebration of the sacraments.” (The Code of Canon Law: New Revised English Translation, HarperCollins Liturgical, 1997, ISBN 0-00-599375-X.)

I have not found anything else on this ruling and would be interested if anyone has.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think someone has.

He wrote on 12 October 2006:

“… 4. Paragraph 279 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal directs that the sacred vessels are to be purified by the priest, the deacon or an instituted acolyte. The status of this text as legislation has recently been clarified by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. It does not seem feasible, therefore, for the Congregation to grant the requested indult from this directive in the general law of the Latin Church. …”

The full letter is at jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/cdw_on_purifica.html .

Perhaps what the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts has recently ruled is that he does not have the authority to change what is in the liturgical books. This is consistent with the Code of Canon Law, 846: “The liturgical books, approved by the competent authority, are to be faithfully followed in the celebration of the sacraments.” (The Code of Canon Law: New Revised English Translation, HarperCollins Liturgical, 1997, ISBN 0-00-599375-X.)

I have not found anything else on this ruling and would be interested if anyone has.

---

You are confusing two different things. Card. Arinze as then prefect of the CDW does speak for the Church. The Apostolic See in union with the Pope can and does clarify questions concerning the GIRM.

 

[Keith_Strohm]

Quote=Keith Strohm
All sin hurts the entire body. It fractures communion and stains all of its members.​

I understand that. When one is in sin—we are separated from God and His Church—the unity between the person and the Body of Christ is broken. What is not being shown is how one persons sin stains all of its members.

Walking_Home,

I think that we must be talking past each other . . . and I’m probably not being clear. I’ll try and rephrase.

There are two issues we are talking about–the breaking of communion and the effect of sin on all of its members. The breaking of communion is clear, you’ve already mentioned that.

The remaining questions are:

1. Does personal sin affect the whole body
2. How does it do so.

The catechism reference (1469) makes it clear that the effects of sin are more than just a breaking of communion:

Sin damages or even breaks fraternal communion. the sacrament of Penance repairs or restores it. **In this sense it does not simply heal the one restored to ecclesial communion, but has also a revitalizing effect on the life of the Church which suffered from the sin of one of her members. **

So, the Church does teach that personal sin has a negative affect on the life of the whole Church. I’m not sure by your posts if you agree with that statement and just want to know how, or if you are not convinced that the Church teaches this.

I’m going to assume that you agree with the statement. And so, the question is, “How does one person’s sin have that effect on the whole Body?”

The statement in CCC 1469 in turn references 1Cor 12:26

If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

Since this verse takes place in the context of Paul’s discourse on the reality of the Body of Christ, it seems clear that personal sin has a corporate effect precisely because of the reality of the Body of Christ. That is the ‘how.’ We are joined together in a mystical union with Christ as our Head. My sin, therefore, has a negative spiritual effect on the whole Body because of this union. We are first and foremost the Body of Christ and then individually members of it.

This corporate reality is why Deacon Ed mentions the fact that in the sacrament of reconciliation the priest not only stands in the place of Christ, but also in the place of the community (even those not directly involved in the personal sin).

Deacon Ed might be able to point you to some other references for the corporate effect of personal sin besides the CCC and Scripture.

Keith

 

[AlexV]

Contrary to what some (Mr. Lilburne) have repeatedly claimed, the Church DOES NOT, and HAS NEVER, scrupulously regulated the posture of the faithful at Mass so as to exclude what are venerable and customary acts of reverence.

The posture issue ONLY became a heated topic a few years ago in the USA…the liturgical issue du jour, as it were.

Rome has made very clear in Notitiae responses to dubia that no, there is NOTHING WRONG with kneeling after you receive Communion. It’s what people have done for quite a long time in quite a few places, and it’s not disobedient, it’s not deviant, it’s not a breaking of any rubric, it’s not something to criticize.

The LITURGICAL TRADITION of the Roman Rite has been to refrain from scrupulous regulation of posture, and Cardinal Arinze affirmed that longstanding tradition in his response to various dubia.

Quote all you want (pedantically). The fact remains, kneeling after you receive Communion is not “disobedient” to anything.

Incidentally, the appropriate Vatican dicastery DOES have the authority to rule in matters of liturgy.

 

[baltobetsy]

Here is my purely personal opinion.

When I cling to Christ and you cling to Christ, you and I are more securely bound to each other than when I cling to you and you cling to me.

When we all unite ourselves to Christ in prayer after Communion, we discover that we are also united to each other. That is a reality. It is not made more real by our having a common posture or singing together or whatever.

Betsy

 

[fix]

This question was asked in Ask the Apologist forum. Here is Fr. Serpa’s answer.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=121514

Dear Mairegal,

Such a statement betrays a lack of understanding of what prayer is in general and of what Holy Communion is in particular. To be introverted is to be turned into one’s self. Prayer, if it is true prayer, is all about God. When we receive the Holy Eucharist we are physically aware of His divine visitation. It is a time of the holiest of communions in which we are most intimately united with each other because of our union with Him.

Often we hear liturgists insisting that we sing at such times to show our communion with each other—when HE is the source of such union and not such feeble attempts to ape the real thing. By ALL MEANS acknowledge the divine Presence within your roof. Nothing matters more—absolutely nothing!

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

I love Fr. Serpa’s answers.

I remember reading this piece from another good priest:

…It was the day after her First Holy Communion, and the little girl had gone to Holy Mass and Communion with her godmother, who could not resist prying, and asked her little protégé what she had said to Jesus in her lengthy, obviously fervent thanksgiving after Communion. “I thanked Him for coming; I asked Him to come again. I asked Him to keep me good, so that I can receive Him again. Then, I recited my ABC’s for Him, counted from one to ten for Him, and I told Him a ghost story!”…

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5964

The link says it was from the early 20th century. My question is when we emphasize the communal aspect of worship to the point where we distort it have we not taken some aspect of the truth and only emphasized one part of it and made the truth almost a lie?

The OP relays a remark that seems to do just that.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

We’ve always knelt after Communion in my home parish. That has seemed to be the custom in most parishes I’ve been to. I don’t understand why some people feel the need to “make” others stand. What is the point? It might help to get away from the “hymn sandwich” type of Mass and the expectation that everybody needs to be singing and doing stuff all the time.

 

[Walking_Home]

I love Fr. Serpa’s answers.

I remember reading this piece from another good priest:

The link says it was from the early 20th century. My question is when we emphasize the communal aspect of worship to the point where we distort it have we not taken some aspect of the truth and only emphasized one part of it and made the truth almost a lie?
The OP relays a remark that seems to do just that.

---

You have made a very good pt. Distorting one element of truth—results in the distortion of truth itself.

Ps. Fr. Serpa --