Private Property under "communism"?

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I was wondering would “communism” (centralized or decentralized) be okay if it recognized that a person’s tools, clothes, houses, food etc. are his private property while (assuming it is possible) providing these and other things from a piece of public property? That is, privacy of use and ownership but public distribution and production?
 
No. Communism makes the State (government) God, and puts the State in charge of decisions.
It is an entire way of life / philosophy, that has implications far beyond who owns something.

It violates “Subsidiarity” -
CCC “1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies.”

CCC - "1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

CCC - “1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.”

CCC - 2209 The family must be helped and defended by appropriate social measures. Where families cannot fulfill their responsibilities, other social bodies have the duty of helping them and of supporting the institution of the family. Following the principle of subsidiarity, larger communities should take care not to usurp the family’s prerogatives or interfere in its life."

CCC - "1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as “the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion.”

(Bold print is mine.)
 
No. Communism makes the State (government) God, and puts the State in charge of decisions.
It is an entire way of life / philosophy, that has implications far beyond who owns something.

It violates “Subsidiarity” -
CCC “1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies.”

CCC - "1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

CCC - “1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.”

CCC - 2209 The family must be helped and defended by appropriate social measures. Where families cannot fulfill their responsibilities, other social bodies have the duty of helping them and of supporting the institution of the family. Following the principle of subsidiarity, larger communities should take care not to usurp the family’s prerogatives or interfere in its life."

CCC - "1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as “the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion.”

(Bold print is mine.)
Well true, but that’s why my communism was in quotes. I think that “communism” is okay if there is no civil society -you can’t defend a lower level of society when it doesn’t exist. In that case, wouldn’t my “communism” allow for both public and private property? That’s my question.
 
Well true, but that’s why my communism was in quotes. I think that “communism” is okay if there is no civil society -you can’t defend a lower level of society when it doesn’t exist. In that case, wouldn’t my “communism” allow for both public and private property? That’s my question.
Your definition of communism and the real definition of communism are not the same, and are not compatible.

Dictionary definitions:
  1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
  2. ( often initial capital letter ) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
  3. ( initial capital letter ) the principles and practices of the Communist party.
  4. communalism.
The true meaning of communism is not OK.
 
Your definition of communism and the real definition of communism are not the same, and are not compatible.

Dictionary definitions:
  1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
  2. ( often initial capital letter ) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
  3. ( initial capital letter ) the principles and practices of the Communist party.
  4. communalism.
The true meaning of communism is not OK.
Then I’ll call it public-private propertarianism -the question is whether the economic system this economic system is reconciliable w/morality.
 
Then I’ll call it public-private propertarianism -the question is whether the economic system this economic system is reconciliable w/morality.
There are many ways of communal living which are perfectly compatible with the Faith: consider monasteries. And distributism, a system proposed by GK Chesterton and Hillaire Belloc, advocates this type of economic system.

However, the word communism is used to describe a partular set of philosophies which are generally related to Marxism, and which are against Catholic thought. What Marx proposed, a forced system of total socialism leading to a perfecting of man such that government would no longer be needed, is totally against the Catholoc teaching on the nature of man.
 
The Communist systems of government which grew out of the writings of Karl Marx are inimical to Christianity. Marxists would argue that those systems did not follow Marx’s precepts. Nonetheless, Marx himself was opposed to religion.

As has been pointed out, there are many forms of communism (with a small “c”). A good example is a monastic community where each member of the order has taken a vow of poverty, yet as a community there are property and means of producing a livelihood which are common to the community members. As for ownership of private property, I believe that communism refers to common ownership or what would be called “real property” or “means of production”, such as farm lands or factories. You probably get into a gray area with things like hand implements for work. As far as personal effects, such as clothing, devotional items, etc… those would be less likely to be considered to be communally owned.
 
There are many ways of communal living which are perfectly compatible with the Faith: consider monasteries. And distributism, a system proposed by GK Chesterton and Hillaire Belloc, advocates this type of economic system.

However, the word communism is used to describe a partular set of philosophies which are generally related to Marxism, and which are against Catholic thought. What Marx proposed, a forced system of total socialism leading to a perfecting of man such that government would no longer be needed, is totally against the Catholoc teaching on the nature of man.
I don’t think Chesterton or Belloc saw “distributism” in this way. The followers of Dorothy Day do, and somehow they coopted the term “distributism” for their sort of collectivist notion of how things ought to be. But as near as I can tell, the Dorothy Day concept has little in common with that of Chesterton and Belloc.

I don’t pretend to be an expert in economics in general or “distributism” in particular. But I think Belloc and Chesterton were more in line with Pope Leo XIII’s critiques of both socialism and pervasive corporatism, which Encyclical is an endorsement of a sort of “capitalism writ small”. Granting, as they did, that there were certain functions that required sizeable businesses or government intervention (hopefully at the most proximate level possible), but that any economy should, by its policies, encourage individual and family acquisition of productive, inheritable assets. But there is an individual dimension to it as well. One can NOT be a successful “small scale capitalist” if one throws one’s earnings away on consumer goods; a particularly severe problem in our own society presently. I read recently that the percentage of income people spend on non-essential consumer goods is greater now than it has ever been before in this economy. It may be observed as well that those who accumulated significant assets on their own are almost always under-consumers relative to their income levels. A lot of this is in the mind.

Interestingly, Chesterton, in particular, complained of the fact that much land lay idle in Britain while Britain was, at the same time, importing most of its food and fiber. As a consequence, productive labor and assets to be gained by it were discouraged in Britain of his time. One can easily think of that in terms of energy, particularly that produced by fossil fuels, today in the U.S., where development is discouraged in every way, resulting in unemployment here and imports from abroad. One can also think of the fact that soon we will all be obliged to use those awful “Dairy Queen” mercury light bulbs from China, instead of the incandescent bulbs that were manufactured in the U.S. A pretty clear case of government/big business colluding to batten both at the expense of the individuals who used to be gainfully employed in manufacturing the incandescent bulbs.

It was Chesterton’s belief that “domestication” of needed resources would maximize the opportunity for individuals and families to acquire productive assets. (farms, in that context) He believed it to be in the interests of huge capitalists and governments in collusion with them, to keep people as dependent as possible; dependent both on government handouts and on big business consumerism. It is very difficult to dismiss his thesis.

Early versions of distributism ought to be studied by individuals for guidance in their individual and family lives, if nothing else. It might be observed, of course, that if Chesterton and Belloc (and the Popes, every one of whom wrote about this) had any merit to their contentions, the U.S. is absolutely on the wrong track, and profoundly so.
 
Thank you so much for your correction and for explaining so much. It explains why I had a hard time “warming up to” distributism, since most of the materials I have been able to get are from the followers of Dorothy Day 🙂 and some of their proposals I found very odd and unworkable.
 
Under the category of private property, suppose someone discovers oil or natural gas on his or her property, can that person use it for free? Can that person sell it at some negotiated price to his or her neighbors.

There are places where natural gas and oil just comes to the surface on its own pressure. They have been generating natural gas in shallow water wells since the 1800’s.

However, if the government has a policy of high cost oil and natural gas, where does that leave the property owner?

Here is an article by Victor Davis Hansen that touches on this issue.

townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2011/04/28/are_sky-high_gas_prices_good
 
However, if the government has a policy of high cost oil and natural gas, where does that leave the property owner?
Indeed. And if the property owner fails to pay his property taxes, the property isn’t his anymore. To him, it might as well be a “communistic” state.
 
I was wondering would “communism” (centralized or decentralized) be okay if it recognized that a person’s tools, clothes, houses, food etc. are his private property while (assuming it is possible) providing these and other things from a piece of public property? That is, privacy of use and ownership but public distribution and production?
This wouldn’t normally be called communism, but it could be acceptable from a Catholic perspective. It would depend on how it was organized. There are historical examples of Catholic societies that were organized that way - it has some similarities to pre-reformation Europe. Or did you ever see the movie “The Mission?” It describes a social structure, set up by missionaries, along those lines.
 
Thank you so much for your correction and for explaining so much. It explains why I had a hard time “warming up to” distributism, since most of the materials I have been able to get are from the followers of Dorothy Day 🙂 and some of their proposals I found very odd and unworkable.
Try reading The Serville State by Belloc.
 
Under the category of private property, suppose someone discovers oil or natural gas on his or her property, can that person use it for free? Can that person sell it at some negotiated price to his or her neighbors.

There are places where natural gas and oil just comes to the surface on its own pressure. They have been generating natural gas in shallow water wells since the 1800’s.

However, if the government has a policy of high cost oil and natural gas, where does that leave the property owner?

Here is an article by Victor Davis Hansen that touches on this issue.

townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2011/04/28/are_sky-high_gas_prices_good
I’m not sure what the issue is you are trying to get at. What makes you think the right to property is always absolute? It may be in some cases, but not necessarily in others. Why do you think that the right to energy rests absolutely with the individual? What if the reserve extends under several properties? What if the overwhelming good of the society depends on the resource?

For example, would you say it was advantageous for water to be privately owned, a “right” of the land-owner? Can private land-owners such the aquifer dry? Can a land-owner bottle all the water and sell it to those who have none, and deny it to those who cannot afford it?

These are not simple or obvious questions, and the answers may not always be the same.
 
I’m not sure what the issue is you are trying to get at. What makes you think the right to property is always absolute? It may be in some cases, but not necessarily in others. Why do you think that the right to energy rests absolutely with the individual? What if the reserve extends under several properties? What if the overwhelming good of the society depends on the resource?

For example, would you say it was advantageous for water to be privately owned, a “right” of the land-owner? Can private land-owners such the aquifer dry? Can a land-owner bottle all the water and sell it to those who have none, and deny it to those who cannot afford it?

These are not simple or obvious questions, and the answers may not always be the same.
It’s not the answer to your philosophical question, but it may be of interest to know that there are basically two approaches to water use in the U.S.

In most of the rainier portions of the U.S., the rights are “riparian rights”; that is, the owner of the bank of a stream may take as much water as he wants from the stream. That applies to underground water as well. But the underlying supposition (taken from England) is that the rainfall and thus the water flow is so plentiful that its overall quantity is not a matter of concern. In many places, that’s exactly correct. In some, it isn’t.

In much of the southwest, however, the doctrine is that of “prior appropriation”. In other words, whoever utilizes the water first has the right to continue taking that same amount of water regardless of how it affects others.

Perhaps this is at least mildly instructive in a moral sense. If desired resources are such that one person’s acquisition does not, in itself, deprive others from the same opportunity to acquire, the acquisition of the first ought not to be condemned. When, however, resources really are not available to all, it’s a different story.

The difficulty, when applied to things other than water flowing in a stream or some massive petroleum resource bubbling up in one’s yard, is in determining what “availability” is. Does it mean “equality of opportunity” in the normally used sense that all could work hard and achieve reasonable, though perhaps unequal levels of prosperity? Or does it mean the result should be the same for everyone regardless of the (name removed by moderator)uts he brings to the endeavor?

The answer might differ from time to time and place to place, because sometimes material resources really are a “zero sum game”, like water in a desert. One man’s wealth requires another man’s poverty. In some societies that’s probably the case. But is that true in the U.S. and most of the West? Personally, I don’t think one could make a credible case that it is.

Therefore, then, it seems to me the acquisition of material goods in the U.S. is more akin to “riparian rights” than it is to “prior appropriation”; the supposition, of course, being that diligent effort will yield a reasonably satisfactory result for those approaching the “bank of the economic stream”.
 
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