private revelation

  • Thread starter Thread starter spencer2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

spencer2

Guest
i know we are not bound by the church to believe private revelation but this is one of many saint birgitta’s revelations and prophecies. i will not write the whole thing because it is too long. it is about marriage between husband and wife and what’s expected of them to live a chaste marriage. i am writing this because it conflicts with our teaching of sex being unitive and procreative.
in my law it is commanded for a husband to have only one wife and forbidden for him during her life to have several wives. those whose unite sexually through divine love and fear for the sake of procreation are a spiritual temple where i wish to dwell as the third companion. but the people of today are joined in wedlock for seven reasons. First because of facial beauty. Second, because of wealth. Third becaues of their coarse pleasure and indecent joy they get out of intercourse. Fourth because of festivities and uncontrolled gluttony. Fifth because it gives rise to pride in dressing, eating, entertainment and other vanities. Sixth in order to bring up offspring not for God but for wealth and honor. Seventh they join in wedlock on account of lust and the lustful appetite of beasts.
Accordingly i will turn to a spiritual marriage, the kind that is appropriate to God to have with a chaste body and soul. In it there are seven goods as opposed to the seven evils mentioned above.
 
continued
First there is no desire for fairness of form or beauty of body or pleasant sights but only for the sight and the love of God. Second, there is no desire to possess anything over or above their necessities of what they need to live and nothing in excess. Third they avoid idle and frivolous talk. Fourh they have no concern for seeing friends or relatives, instead i am the one they love and desire. Fifth, they long to maintain an inner humility in their conscience and an outer one in the way they dress. Sixth, they never have any intention of leading sensuous lives. Seventh, they engender sons and daughters for God by means of good behavior and good example.
Worldly spouses let their appetite for marriage begin in lust like beast but the spiritual spouses begin in love and fear of God and seek to please no one but God. the evil spirit fills the former and urges them to carnal delight where their is nothing but stinking rot.

there is more to the revelation but i wanted to get everyone’s opinion of the matter. i know this was back in the 1300’s, just wondering if the the church back then recognized this.
 
I don’t know much about the writings of the saints, but I do not believe these words are from God. If they are, then I have some changing to do. Here are some of the things that convince me:
spencer2 said:
i am writing this because it conflicts with our teaching of sex being unitive and procreative.
Click to expand...
That was one of my first red flags – it conflicts with Church teachings.
… but the people of today are joined in wedlock for seven reasons. First because of facial beauty. Second, because of wealth. Third becaues of their coarse pleasure and indecent joy they get out of intercourse. Fourth because of festivities and uncontrolled gluttony. Fifth because it gives rise to pride in dressing, eating, entertainment and other vanities. Sixth in order to bring up offspring not for God but for wealth and honor. Seventh they join in wedlock on account of lust and the lustful appetite of beasts.
Accordingly i will turn to a spiritual marriage, the kind that is appropriate to God to have with a chaste body and soul. In it there are seven goods as opposed to the seven evils mentioned above.
Click to expand...
OK, so maybe there are people who marry for those reasons. I wish to point out that these aren’t all bad reasons. In fact, St. Paul cites reason #7 as a valid reason to get married – as a concession, but still valid. He said it was good to remain single, but if you cannot handle that, you should get married so as not to burn with passion. (1 Cor 7:9)

If God said the above, then that would tell me that St. Paul was leading people into marriages that did not please God, and that Paul would be guilty of what “people of today” do.
spencer2 said:
First there is no desire for fairness of form or beauty of body or pleasant sights but only for the sight and the love of God.
Click to expand...
I’m assuming this means the (sight and love) of God, not the sight and (love of God). I’d be more inclined to believe the latter, but not the former. I don’t believe God put physical beauty on the earth without instilling the desire in us to enjoy that beauty. In fact, I reject that God doesn’t want us to enjoy it.
Second, there is no desire to possess anything over or above their necessities of what they need to live and nothing in excess.
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with this, either. I don’t see anything wrong with a desire for more than just the necessities, as long as I keep in mind what IS a necessity and what is a want. Jesus said He came so that we may live life in abundance, not so that we may live it scrapping from one meal to the next.
Third they avoid idle and frivolous talk.
Click to expand...
Agree.
Fourh they have no concern for seeing friends or relatives, instead i am the one they love and desire.
Click to expand...
That doesn’t paint a picture of a healthy marriage to me; maybe it is my lack of faith talking but I doubt it. How can we provide for them if we don’t even want to see them because we’re so focused on God? Do we ignore humans because we want to gaze at God? NO. What we do the to least of God’s brothers, you do to Him. Besides, how are we ever going to do acts of mercy if we have no desire to see other people?

Another comment on this point: “And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” - 1 Tim 5:8
Fifth, they long to maintain an inner humility in their conscience and an outer one in the way they dress. Sixth, they never have any intention of leading sensuous lives. Seventh, they engender sons and daughters for God by means of good behavior and good example.
Click to expand...
I’m OK with those comments.
Worldly spouses let their appetite for marriage begin in lust like beast but the spiritual spouses begin in love and fear of God and seek to please no one but God. the evil spirit fills the former and urges them to carnal delight where their is nothing but stinking rot.
Click to expand...
When I first got married 23 years ago, I might have been doing it partly out of lust. During the marriage I learned better, and now am living a chaste life with my wife. The marriage itself helped me changed from being worldly to being spiritual and loving.

Whoever wrote these words, IMO, had a poor grasp of what marriage is about. I totally understand that the seven bad characteristics are problematic, but I reject that the seven “good” ones are actually what God would want for us, because they conflict with other teachings. I simply cannot believe God would actually say this stuff.

Granted, this was written hundreds of years ago, but I don’t think the nature of people or of marriage has changed that much.

Alan
 
thanks for the response. i don’t understand the lust part either. it sounds like any type of sexual desire for your husban/wife without the desire for children is considered lust and sinful. just a little confused as to difference of lust and sexual desire.
 
spencer2 said:
thanks for the response. i don’t understand the lust part either. it sounds like any type of sexual desire for your husban/wife without the desire for children is considered lust and sinful. just a little confused as to difference of lust and sexual desire.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I thought that’s what marriage was partly for, was to take care of those things. :cool:

I’m sorry to have been so negative, but honestly it sounds like the person speaking has never been married – so I question whether it was inspired. I guess you asked…

I would love to examine these topics more, and see if we can kick around some Christian/Catholic ideas that correlate to the alleged revelation. I didn’t know if that was your intent, or were just looking for a thumbs up/down?

Maybe with the inspiration of love and the Holy Spirit, and with teamwork, we can come up with a better set of criteria and publish them. 😃

Alan
 
since OP gives no source or link to what I think are supposed to be quotes there is no intelligent way to comment, I can’t separate her thoughts from what is being quoted. May I suggest in general it is not very helpful for the average Catholic to spend a lot of time with private revelations from another age except as they are transmitted today as unbroken unvarying Church teaching through her magesterial teaching authority. We can do that quite well with the standard teaching documents and offices of the Church such as the catechism, teaching of the popes such as theology of the body, Deus Caritas est and so forth, without having to look up obscure saints from other times, whose writings may or may not even be translated or transmitted accurately.
 
I don’t think that it goes against Church teaching… who says that “unitive and procreative” should involve lust? Lust is a sin even in marriage; it’s always a sin.

Marriage actually exists for children and for the spouses to help each other get to Heaven, not just to satisfy sexual desire. That is why there’s NFP, - to practice self control in marriage.
 
It appears to be a clumsy (to modern ears) way of expressing the idea that religious life (spiritual marriage) is superior to the vocation of marriage.

I would also venture to say that, like other private revelation, it was meant for the person who received it, and few, if any, others. Perhaps the saint needed some convincing to give herself entirely to God, and this is what she received.

Betsy
 
Monica4316 said:
I don’t think that it goes against Church teaching… who says that “unitive and procreative” should involve lust? Lust is a sin even in marriage; it’s always a sin.

Marriage actually exists for children and for the spouses to help each other get to Heaven, not just to satisfy sexual desire. That is why there’s NFP, - to practice self control in marriage.
Click to expand...
the revelation said nothing about unitive, it stated just for the sake of procreation. it also sounds like it is saying that any type of sexual desire for each other is lust and an act like a beast. i always thought lust was a selfish desire for one’s own gratification.
 
spencer2 said:
the revelation said nothing about unitive, it stated just for the sake of procreation. it also sounds like it is saying that any type of sexual desire for each other is lust and an act like a beast. i always thought lust was a selfish desire for one’s own gratification.
Click to expand...
It is. Selfish desire for one’s own sexual gratification.
 
this is a very confusing topic for me. my understanding from the catechism is that sex between a married couple is a source of joy and it is not a sin to seek it or mutually concent to as long as there are no means of concracepting. yet in the revelation it says that it is evil to have carnal delight (relations) even with your wife/husband. so what are we to believe or follow.
 
spencer2 said:
this is a very confusing topic for me. my understanding from the catechism is that sex between a married couple is a source of joy and it is not a sin to seek it or mutually concent to as long as there are no means of concracepting. yet in the revelation it says that it is evil to have carnal delight (relations) even with your wife/husband. so what are we to believe or follow.
Click to expand...
I’d go with the Catechism. The other stuff is just noise IMO. As other posters said, these revelations are not for us, and we don’t know why such were “given” to the saint. You may be confused by the so-called “revelations” but you don’t sound like you are confused on what’s right.

IMO, if God didn’t want us to enjoy sex, He would not have made it so enjoyable. Either that or it’s a test to see if we’ll all exercise abstinence so that all humans die out.

Alan
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top