Privation of Good

[Roscoe_Turner]

If evil is as St. Augustine of Hippo posits is the privation of good, yet God is omnipresent and omnibenevolent how can there be a privation of good?

There would have to be a way to prevent God from being somewhere. Which is the case for free will. But that would seem to be in conflict with Gods omnipotence. Even if you say God allows it through free will there is the problem that there would be somewhere that He is not.So He would not be omnipresent.

Been thinking about the nature of evil in light of the current events.

Thanks,

Roscoe

 

[Ad_Orientem]

God is present in different ways. See St. Thomas, STI, Q8, a3.

Evil is not an absolute privation of good, but the privation of a particular good. See STI, 49.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

God is present in different ways. See St. Thomas, STI, Q8, a3.

Evil is not an absolute privation of good, but the privation of a particular good. See STI, 49.

Thank you for the links but I’m not sure that cleared anything up for me.

Aquinas states that God isn’t contained in every thing but contains everything. He defines different types of presence i.e. grace but the underlying premise is omnipresence. God is everywhere.

As to the nature of Evil - Good is the cause of Evil per Aquinas -

“Hence it is true that evil in no way has any but an accidental cause; and thus is good the cause of evil.”

Also evil is deficiency and God can’t be the source of Evil because God is not deficient.

So if God is everywhere and not deficient how can there be evil? There is no place for it to exist. Which seems contrary to common sense but Aquinas does hint at that with his fire analogy. Evil is a matter of perspective rather than one of actuality.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

The problem of evil is a hard question. Maybe this will help:

St. Thomas and the Problem of Evil

 

[snarflemike]

Why do you think that omnibenevolent means not allowing evil to happen? Why do you think, IOW, that lack of evil in this world is the greatest possible good for us?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Why do you think that omnibenevolent means not allowing evil to happen? Why do you think, IOW, that lack of evil in this world is the greatest possible good for us?

I don’t and I don’t

I’m asking - if evil is the absence of good and God is all good and He is everywhere how can there be evil.?

The only seeming logical explanation is evil is a matter of perspective. Things can’t have a lack of good if God, who is all good is everywhere and isn’t lacking. This seems to be contrary common sense though. It means there is no such thing as evil just the perception of it.

 

[tonyrey]

If evil is as St. Augustine of Hippo posits is the privation of good, yet God is omnipresent and omnibenevolent how can there be a privation of good?

The privation of good is not a material privation.

There would have to be a way to prevent God from being somewhere. Which is the case for free will. But that would seem to be in conflict with Gods omnipotence. Even if you say God allows it through free will there is the problem that there would be somewhere that He is not.So He would not be omnipresent.

The privation of good has nothing to do with location.

Been thinking about the nature of evil in light of the current events.

Which events?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

The privation of good is not a material privation.

The privation of good has nothing to do with location.

Which events?

I never said it was in either case. Evil = Privation of Good. If God who is all Good is everywhere how can there be a privation?

All of them

 

[Love4All]

If evil is as St. Augustine of Hippo posits is the privation of good, yet God is omnipresent and omnibenevolent how can there be a privation of good?

First: get rid of your word, “omnibenevolent.” That is sloppy theology. The word is not found in Catholic sources. It was coined by atheists attempting to develop the Argument from Evil against the logical coherence of the existence of an all-good God while there is evil in the world.

God is all good, not “omnibenvolent.” Benevolence is good will, and “omnibenevolence” would imply that God extends good will to all, including the souls in hell. And He does not. The souls in hell do not enjoy God’s goodness; they are entirely deprived of it. They suffer His Justice only, and not as their justification, since they have rejected that, but only as their eternal punishment. Punishment is precisely the evil that God creates, referenced in Isaiah, “I form the light and cause darkness, I make peace and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.” So since God inflicts the evil of punishment for all eternity on the souls in hell, plainly, He cannot be called “omnibenvolent.”

There would have to be a way to prevent God from being somewhere. Which is the case for free will. But that would seem to be in conflict with Gods omnipotence. Even if you say God allows it through free will there is the problem that there would be somewhere that He is not.So He would not be omnipresent.

Not so. God is in fact omnipresent. We know that He is even in hell, in His Justice. But a will is not a location, and a will is not even a complete essence, a will is only one aspect of a being. There are beings with wills; there are not any wills existing independently of beings who have wills. So God is present to the being who wills evil, specifically as That to which their wills are opposed. Evil has no reality apart from the opposition to or negation of good, and that good to which the evil is opposed, is from God, and ultimately, is God.

Been thinking about the nature of evil in light of the current events.

Thanks,

Roscoe

It is well to reflect on current events. They are Apocalyptic in fact.

I’m asking - if evil is the absence of good and God is all good and He is everywhere how can there be evil.?

The only seeming logical explanation is evil is a matter of perspective. Things can’t have a lack of good if God, who is all good is everywhere and isn’t lacking. This seems to be contrary common sense though. It means there is no such thing as evil just the perception of it.

It is accurate to say there is no “such thing” as evil. Evil has no substance. There is no evil created thing. Genesis says that God beheld His whole Creation, and saw that it was good. Now the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was created by God, and therefore was good. The Serpent was created by God, and therefore was good. But the Serpent willed the evil of Adam and Eve’s transgression of God’s Commandment. The will of the Serpent was evil; but that will is not a complete substance, but only an aspect of the created being, the Serpent. So there is no created substance that can be called evil; but evil manifests as an undesirable configuration of created substances. Any substance put to a use that is contrary to God’s Commandment, is used for evil.

 

[snarflemike]

I don’t and I don’t

I’m asking - if evil is the absence of good and God is all good and He is everywhere how can there be evil.?

The only seeming logical explanation is evil is a matter of perspective. Things can’t have a lack of good if God, who is all good is everywhere and isn’t lacking. This seems to be contrary common sense though. It means there is no such thing as evil just the perception of it.

It sounds as though you’re treating both God and evil as substances, like oil and water. If God is filling up all of creation, there can’t be any room left for evil. This seems like a doomed analogy. Clearly God and evil can exist at the same time and place - witness the crucifixion.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

First: get rid of your word, “omnibenevolent.” That is sloppy theology. The word is not found in Catholic sources. It was coined by atheists attempting to develop the Argument from Evil against the logical coherence of the existence of an all-good God while there is evil in the world.

God is all good, not “omnibenvolent.” Benevolence is good will, and “omnibenevolence” would imply that God extends good will to all, including the souls in hell. And He does not. The souls in hell do not enjoy God’s goodness; they are entirely deprived of it. They suffer His Justice only, and not as their justification, since they have rejected that, but only as their eternal punishment. Punishment is precisely the evil that God creates, referenced in Isaiah, “I form the light and cause darkness, I make peace and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.” So since God inflicts the evil of punishment for all eternity on the souls in hell, plainly, He cannot be called “omnibenvolent.”

Not so. God is in fact omnipresent. We know that He is even in hell, in His Justice. But a will is not a location, and a will is not even a complete essence, a will is only one aspect of a being. There are beings with wills; there are not any wills existing independently of beings who have wills. So God is present to the being who wills evil, specifically as That to which their wills are opposed. Evil has no reality apart from the opposition to or negation of good, and that good to which the evil is opposed, is from God, and ultimately, is God.

It is well to reflect on current events. They are Apocalyptic in fact.

It is accurate to say there is no “such thing” as evil. Evil has no substance. There is no evil created thing. Genesis says that God beheld His whole Creation, and saw that it was good. Now the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was created by God, and therefore was good. The Serpent was created by God, and therefore was good. But the Serpent willed the evil of Adam and Eve’s transgression of God’s Commandment. The will of the Serpent was evil; but that will is not a complete substance, but only an aspect of the created being, the Serpent. So there is no created substance that can be called evil; but evil manifests as an undesirable configuration of created substances. Any substance put to a use that is contrary to God’s Commandment, is used for evil.

The Catechism states -

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good.

If will is the determining factor. Evil being like swimming against the tide. How do you separate the will from the one that wills? To separate it from place; God has His will yet He is pure spirit. Souls in Hell are immaterial yet have wills. So if God’s omnipresence permeates all how can it not permeate will, which is also immaterial? It is part of the one that wills. God isn’t divisible there is no way to say God is present here and not here. If his nature is All Good, this must also permeate will as well, if His precence is universal, which He is.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

It sounds as though you’re treating both God and evil as substances, like oil and water. If God is filling up all of creation, there can’t be any room left for evil. This seems like a doomed analogy. Clearly God and evil can exist at the same time and place - witness the crucifixion.

This is different discussion, but The Crucifixion had to be the will of God. With out it the Salvation could not have occurred, which is why God became man. If you are interested in perusing it I’d participate in a new thread, but I’m not interested in pursuing it here.

God is infinitely good, infinite and omnipresent. So good must be everywhere at all times, in the material and immaterial. Or you could say there is a place where God is not.