Pro-abortion arguments...those who are pro-choice, what do/did you really believe?

[jack_hawkins]

I think the relevance would be that the Catholic Church teaches that the human life begins at the moment of conception. Treating the implanted life as if it is not human, and is just a “blob of tissues in the wrong place” is what is getting you into trouble here.

“the human life” - what exactly do you mean by that?
the Catholic Church has not defined when “ensoulment” occurs
it seems intuitively incorrect that it is at conception because of the phenomenon of monozygotic twins
I have found the idea that all zygotes have souls can lead to some bizarre practices (yes the notion is not confined to the Catholic Church), but that is digressing
so we can’t say that an ectopic pregnancy has a soul according to the Catholic Church

 

[jack_hawkins]

Sure it is appropriate. In what way is it not appropriate? To directly kill the embryo is murder (of course your basis of argument is that you don’t believe in the personhood of the embryo)

NO, the basis of my argument isn’t that I “don’t believe in the personhood of the embryo”
please don’t start lying about what I am saying - there’s no point in starting these silly strawman arguments
all forms of treatment for ectopic pregnancy directly kill the embryo - so you would not treat ectopic pregnancy then?
that is murder also

Sorry, but I haven’t disagreed in any way in what the various forms of treatment are and what results from it. (I asked for specific example and have not received one)

specific example of what?
I have explained myself to the point of exhaustion

Which is what makes the analogy all the more appropriate. It may be medically possible to perform a certain action, however it may not be morally licit to do so just because it is possible

it is morally licit to save a woman’s life rather than let her die futilely

jack hawkinsit is self-deception to justify it as “double-effect”, and even worse to deny the woman future fertility because of this self-deception -
On what grounds?

because the purpose of salpingectomy is to remove the pregnancy, since the tube is not the immediate problem at all and can be preserved

Originally Posted by jack hawkins
mapleoak, your comments about ectopic pregnancy are so off the mark that I can’t believe you have any relevant experience
I certainly wouldn’t want you looking after any of my nearest and dearest with an ectopic pregnancy!
Thanks for the compliment, although I maintain that I will refuse to make the basis of my arguments on catchy sounding put downs

no, it’s a very pertinent point - and certainly not a compliment
I value the lives of patients

I wouldn’t want you looking after any of my nearest and dearest with say an abdominal aortic aneurysm
I don’t see how THIS is relevant or appropriate to the issue.

the issue of preventative surgery?
it is very relevant
the job of a doctor is to practise good medicine and act decisively where appropriate

 

[catholicbuckeye]

I’m not pro-abortion, but I know someone who is. I’ve often thought that she HAS to be that way because otherwise she couldn’t live with herself. That’s because early in her marriage, when she & her husband thought they weren’t ready to have children yet, she had an abortion. “The time just wasn’t right” was the reason given. And it was all very hush hush. She and her husband later went on to have two children, both of whom are now adults.

In the interim, this woman’s opinion has altered from one of timing to the more general idea of control. She is still pro-abortion, but now her reason, as she puts it, is that “no MAN is going to tell me what I can and cannot do with my own body”. (I would presume that would extend from her husband, to her doctor, and to any politician who sought to make a law about this matter.) So now, for her, it’s a matter of having control over her own life, as she sees it. I can only suppose that this control extends to timing as well as other factors. A couple of years ago, when her daughter thought she was pregnant, she was prepared to help her daughter get an abortion because of her daughter’s circumstances (unmarried, not ready for children) but it turned out to be a false alarm.

When confronted with opinions like this woman’s, I have occasionally suggested that “having control” over your own life can also include not having sex unless you are prepared to have the child that could result. The usual response is that I am hopelessly naive for even thinking that way.

That last point is very good (not the naive one!). I was watching “Faith and Culture” on EWTN with Colleen Carroll Campbell (brilliant woman btw) and she had a “pro-life feminist” on the show yesterday who had mentioned that the original feminists, i.e. Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, etc., were ardently PRO-LIFE (and yes, surprisingly we aren’t taught in schools that abortion was a problem > 100 years ago as well)!!! Why? Because they held that it was abortion that was degrading to women, and they stood up for rights of everybody - women, african americans and yes, the unborn. Also ironically, NARAL was started by two men, wasn’t started by feminists who wanted “control of their bodies”. I honestly believe women of the 70s-today have been brainwashed to believe that abortion = control. If you have an abortion, then you have already conceded what control you had awhile before. Nothing naive about arguing that point, it is as solid a fact as you can have on the matter.

 

[mapleoak]

all forms of treatment for ectopic pregnancy directly kill the embryo - so you would not treat ectopic pregnancy then?
that is murder also

If it is ALSO murder, then you agree that treatment results in death too, right? Are you saying you have the authority to decide which life is more important?

specific example of what?
I have explained myself to the point of exhaustion

A specific example to point out your assertation of my lack of knowledge in the medical realm.

it is morally licit to save a woman’s life rather than let her die futilely because the purpose of salpingectomy is to remove the pregnancy, since the tube is not the immediate problem at all and can be preserved
no, it’s a very pertinent point - and certainly not a compliment
I value the lives of patients
the issue of preventative surgery?
it is very relevant

A huge difference though, this type of preventative surgery does not result in the death of an embryo. Not relevent to the discussion.

the job of a doctor is to practise good medicine and act decisively where appropriate

No disagreement here. Appropriateness however includes consideration of moral discernment in any decisive action taken.

 

[jack_hawkins]

If it is ALSO murder, then you agree that treatment results in death too, right?

your comment is not very clear - could you expand?

Are you saying you have the authority to decide which life is more important?

when have I ever said that? your question is just trying to muddy the waters

A specific example to point out your assertation of my lack of knowledge in the medical realm

I have already, by citing the example of AAA as preventative surgery

A huge difference though, this type of preventative surgery does not result in the death of an embryo. Not relevent to the discussion

it is obviously pertinent to the point you raised of preventative surgery

No disagreement here. Appropriateness however includes consideration of moral discernment in any decisive action taken.

you have no intention of decisive action according to your previous comments about “preventative surgery”
a good doctor bases his decisions on his knowledge of the prognosis of a particular condition, rather than waiting to react to the situation as it develops

 

[catholicbuckeye]

you might not be able to, but I can - it’s called saving a woman’s life
does that bother you?
it is true that when the ectopic is below a certain size, expectant management can be considered, but only because these ectopic pregnancies are resorbed - otherwise the mother’s life WILL be threatened
thank goodness not too many physicians take this attitude or there would be many more mortalities from this condition
having dealt with ectopic pregnancies myself, I know it is not a condition to take lightly - women can bleed to death in a very short period of time

Hi - Just have a few questions for you, I have been reading bits and pieces of your debate - I presume you are Catholic as you show all those pray-icons and Scripture verses. I infer from your posts that you are in support of abortion to save the life of the mother. Do you feel a woman should be able to procure an abortion to protect her health (physical/mental)? Do you feel a woman should be able to procure an abortion if she feels financially she would not be able to support a child? I am just curious as to where you stand. If you have answered those questions in a previous post that I may have missed, I apologize for wasting your time.

 

[jack_hawkins]

first and foremost I am in this thread trying to confront people with the anomaly that according to some “pro-lifers” ectopic pregnancy can be treated in one way (salpingectomy) and not another (tubal preservation), when in fact both ways are identical morally and medically (except the latter leaves the woman more likely to be able to get pregnant again)
the issue of abortion to save the mother’s life is slightly different
again I think that it should be allowed in certain circumstances, but only where there is a grave threat to the mother’s health
that is because I am pro-life in the non-fanatical sense of the word
I am certainly not pro-abortion in any way, and I wasn’t even before becoming Catholic or for the matter when I had no faith at all
hope that answers your questions

 

[Micki]

I had an abortion at 19 and was pro-choice for many years. I knew that I would never have another abortion but I didn’t want to take that choice away from other women. I just wanted it left legal. The botton line–I NEVER thought about the child I had lost. When I began to do that my view shifted drastically. Now, I am a staunch supporter of the right to life of the baby!!

Also, I support a local crisis pregnancy clinic. This clinic helps women before and after the birth of their child. So, I prove those folks WRONG who say that we (pro-lifers) don’t care about the woman and the child after birth!!! Why do they insist on saying that???

Micki

 

[jack_hawkins]

Oh I certainly appreciate the efforts the Church puts into supporting mothers faced with that decision - and it has to be that way, we are always called to back up our faith with practical action

 

[Imryl]

“It’s not a person”
“It’s not a baby”
“You only care about babies, not women”
“Women will just go back to coat hangers if it’s made illegal”
“Abortion is needed in case a woman’s life is in danger”

In general, was there some experience in your life, or some authority/mentor figure who ingrained these beliefs in you? When arguing for abortion, was there a sincere belief that the pre-born child was human but not person, or that anti-abortion protestors had an agenda and didn’t care about women?

I personally don’t care if the baby/fetus is considered ‘alive’ or not. It is not your place, my place, or anyone elses place to tell someone what they should do in this matter. It is a personal choice, a private matter. Advise them against it if you like, but I don’t approve of anyone attempted to lord over another person on issues of this magnitude.

There are a thousand different arguments about ‘Well if we say that it’s ok to have an abortion because it affects this persons life, then why not kill some random person for a serious infraction on our personal liberties’. But, we’re not talking about that.

This may not be guarenteed or even forseen by our founding fathers (talking america here). But like any government, it changes and grows and it now encompasses this issue.

Why do I believe this way? I grew up in America while this was a big issue, and these are the conclusions I’ve drawn for myself.

When I got pregnant, my husband suggested abortion because we were so bad off financially… my parents offered to help us until we were able to survive on our own. If this had not happened, I highly doubt I would have any regrets right now. But I am glad I did have her.

If you want to combat abortion, then I suggest instead of being a community of individuals you become a community of families. It is difficult to survive on your own these days as a young family.

Micki - that would be a good first start.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I personally don’t care if the baby/fetus is considered ‘alive’ or not. It is not your place, my place, or anyone elses place to tell someone what they should do in this matter. It is a personal choice, a private matter. Advise them against it if you like, but I don’t approve of anyone attempted to lord over another person on issues of this magnitude.

I personally don’t care if the clerk at the convenience store is considered ‘alive’ or not. It is not your place, my place, or anyone elses place to tell the robber what they should do in this matter. It is a personal choice, a private matter. Advise them against it if you like, but I don’t approve of anyone attempted to lord over another person on issues of this magnitude.

In other words, if he wants to kill her, that’s his choice.

There are a thousand different arguments about ‘Well if we say that it’s ok to have an abortion because it affects this persons life, then why not kill some random person for a serious infraction on our personal liberties’. But, we’re not talking about that.

Yes, we are – to ask us to deny the humanity and rights of the unborn is a logical fallacy called “begging the question.”

This may not be guarenteed or even forseen by our founding fathers (talking america here). But like any government, it changes and grows and it now encompasses this issue.

Ah, the old, “I don’t care what the Constitution says, it means what I want it to mean” ploy.

Why do I believe this way? I grew up in America while this was a big issue, and these are the conclusions I’ve drawn for myself.

Careful – you just may wind up another “useless mouth” in a nursing home someday.

When I got pregnant, my husband suggested abortion because we were so bad off financially… my parents offered to help us until we were able to survive on our own. If this had not happened, I highly doubt I would have any regrets right now. But I am glad I did have her.

Can you look your child in the eyd and tell her that at one time you though seriously about killing her?

If you want to combat abortion, then I suggest instead of being a community of individuals you become a community of families. It is difficult to survive on your own these days as a young family.

Which is exactly what we do.

 

[Imryl]

I personally don’t care if the clerk at the convenience store is considered ‘alive’ or not. It is not your place, my place, or anyone elses place to tell the robber what they should do in this matter. It is a personal choice, a private matter. Advise them against it if you like, but I don’t approve of anyone attempted to lord over another person on issues of this magnitude.

In other words, if he wants to kill her, that’s his choice.

Like I said I’m not getting into this aspect of the arguement.

Yes, we are – to ask us to deny the humanity and rights of the unborn is a logical fallacy called “begging the question.”

In your humble opinion.

Ah, the old, “I don’t care what the Constitution says, it means what I want it to mean” ploy.

The consitution doesn’t even address this, what’s your point? Right now, it’s legal. I know exactly what you’re going to respond to this question with. In that case, reread your quote directly above this comment

Careful – you just may wind up another “useless mouth” in a nursing home someday.

If I am so feeble, and so unwanted… then I would not want to be a burden on anyone, family or friends. Put me out of my misery.

Can you look your child in the eyd and tell her that at one time you though seriously about killing her?

Yes I could. But I won’t, that would be damaging to her emotionally. I’m not going to purposely injure anyone unless I strongly feel they deserve it. It would not come up.

Which is exactly what we do.

You do it in your spare time and as an after thought. I know many people not as fortunate as myself. 1.2 billion catholics, millions more christians… And I have never seen anyone I know personally being helped in a way that would matter beyond a single meal, or one day.

Clearly that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t ever happen. But like I said, if you want to prevent it, then you need to make sure people don’t feel alone. I’ve read a few threads on this board about how to approach an unwed pregnant mother about various situations. Try not ostrising them, and maybe it wouldn’t something to be ashamed of. If you treat it like a disease, then don’t be shocked when parents put an end to it like they would an infection.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I’ve read a few threads on this board about how to approach an unwed pregnant mother about various situations. Try not ostrising them, and maybe it wouldn’t even be an issue. If you treat it like a disease, then don’t be shocked with parents put an end to it like they would an infection.

here here
until single mothers are supported without the judgmental attitudes, then it will always be attractive to “remove the evidence of the crime”
so all those who are so condemning must IMO take some of the blame for abortions

 

[Imryl]

It doesn’t just apply to single mothers.

 

[catholicbuckeye]

first and foremost I am in this thread trying to confront people with the anomaly that according to some “pro-lifers” ectopic pregnancy can be treated in one way (salpingectomy) and not another (tubal preservation), when in fact both ways are identical morally and medically (except the latter leaves the woman more likely to be able to get pregnant again)
the issue of abortion to save the mother’s life is slightly different
again I think that it should be allowed in certain circumstances, but only where there is a grave threat to the mother’s health
that is because I am pro-life in the non-fanatical sense of the word
I am certainly not pro-abortion in any way, and I wasn’t even before becoming Catholic or for the matter when I had no faith at all
hope that answers your questions

For the most part. I am basically 100% pro-life in that I don’t agree w/abortion in any circumstances. That being said I certainly can see why people would feel compelled to do so in the event where that is the only option to save the mother’s life. I just fear the slippery slope of rationalizing abortion for other circumstances, e.g. the mother’s “health,” which can be a big umbrella which can cover many meanings.

 

[jack_hawkins]

It doesn’t just apply to single mothers.

yes, I agree

 

[jack_hawkins]

For the most part. I am basically 100% pro-life in that I don’t agree w/abortion in any circumstances. That being said I certainly can see why people would feel compelled to do so in the event where that is the only option to save the mother’s life. I just fear the slippery slope of rationalizing abortion for other circumstances, e.g. the mother’s “health,” which can be a big umbrella which can cover many meanings.

oh I agree - the nebulous concept of the mother’s health can lead to manipulative parasuicidal behaviour for example
but when it is a clear serious risk to the mother’s life, after discussion with the priests, I believe that should be allowed

 

[vern_humphrey]

Like I said I’m not getting into this aspect of the arguement.

You already did.

In your humble opinion.

No opinion to it – do you deny that you see the unborn child as having less rights than those already born? And that you use that concept in your argument?

The consitution doesn’t even address this, what’s your point?

Amendment V (1791)
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,** nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law**; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

and

Amendment XIV (1868)

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Now when did the unborn person get due process of law before being deprived of life? When was the arrest warrant served? What Grand Jury issued a True Bill? Who was the unborn person’s defense attorney? What jury found the unborn person guilty of a capital crime? What judge handed down the death sentence?

Right now, it’s legal. I know exactly what you’re going to respond to this question with. In that case, reread your quote directly above this comment

I’d rather read the Constitution. For your convenience, I have posted the relevant articles.

If I am so feeble, and so unwanted… then I would not want to be a burden on anyone, family or friends. Put me out of my misery.

I’m busy today – how about tomorrow?

Yes I could. But I won’t, that would be damaging to her emotionally. I’m not going to purposely injure anyone unless I strongly feel they deserve it. It would not come up.

What a cop-out! You were willing to kill her, were you not?

You do it in your spare time and as an after thought.

And you know that, how?

Actually, I and my parish are constantly busy with things like this. Our tiny Catholic community is deeply involved in caring for people, helping the needy, assisting young girls who are pregnant, and so on.

And unlike Planned Parenthood, we actually help them – providing services and assistance after the child is born.

I know many people not as fortunate as myself.

Do you consider yourself the only person who knos people not as fortunate as yourself?

1.2 billion catholics, millions more christians… And I have never seen anyone I know personally being helped in a way that would matter beyond a single meal, or one day.

You don’t get involved in coaching kids in school, helping adults learn to read, giving math tutoring to people going to nursing school, and so on?

Clearly that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t ever happen. But like I said, if you want to prevent it, then you need to make sure people don’t feel alone.

How is it a person who supports abortion knows better than those who constantly work to help pregnant girls?

I’ve read a few threads on this board about how to approach an unwed pregnant mother about various situations. Try not ostrising them, and maybe it wouldn’t something to be ashamed of. If you treat it like a disease, then don’t be shocked when parents put an end to it like they would an infection.

How is it a person who supports abortion knows better than those who constantly work to help pregnant girls?

You seem to have formed in your imagination a picture of how the rest of us think and behave – and you condemn us based on your imagination.

 

[church_mouse]

QUOTE=Imryl;2230171]
Clearly that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t ever happen. But like I said, if you want to prevent it, then you need to make sure people don’t feel alone. I’ve read a few threads on this board about how to approach an unwed pregnant mother about various situations. Try not ostrising them, and maybe it wouldn’t something to be ashamed of. If you treat it like a disease, then don’t be shocked when parents put an end to it like they would an infection.

.

jack hawkins Quote:
here here
until single mothers are supported without the judgmental attitudes, then it will always be attractive to “remove the evidence of the crime”
so all those who are so condemning must IMO take some of the blame for abortions

Obviously neither of you have volunteered in a crisis pregnancy center.

 

[jack_hawkins]

you can see from a previous post that I acknowledge the work of the catholic church in supporting pregnant women (but no I have never worked in a CPC)
that is not my point
my point is the attitude of some Christians in condemning unwed pregnant mothers, single or not