Pro-abortion arguments...those who are pro-choice, what do/did you really believe?

[catholicbuckeye]

A cluster of cells may be ‘living’ in the organic sense, but that does not constitute a living breathing, thinking, feeling thing. You better go turn yourself into the justice department, all those trees you’ve killed, bacteria you’ve decimated with your cleaners, all the insects that you have plastered on your windshield.

You are right. I was at my brother’s last week and asked his two year old son, my nephew (“Joey”, for the sake of anonymity), “Who are you?” Anyways, my nephew looked down at his feet, kicked the dirt and looked at his mother. His mother said “go ahead, tell him!” and he got a little shy grin and said “Joey.” Then he kicked the dirt some more, ran to his mom and wrapped himself around her leg.

How disappointing that my two year old nephew couldn’t answer the question “Who are you” in such a deep, THINKING, philosophical manner. It made me wonder if indeed, Joey was a person. I mean, I would gladly support his continued existence if he could have answered “Ah, uncle, you pose the age old question: Who am I? Ahhh. Where to begin. Aristotle said…” And then proceeded with an answer so deep that it made me shoot beer out my nose. But clearly, he is just a bunch of cells. An animated bunch of cells not really self conscious or self aware. I really like your criterion for personhood. You are a pretty sharp guy, no matter what anyone says.

 

[jack_hawkins]

vern, you haven’t contributed anything there, but I can’t be bothered pointing out how and why what you say is rubbish
one point I will make - do you even understand what fetus in feto is? it seems not, otherwise you would not make that comment which is nonsensical in that context

 

[vern_humphrey]

vern, you haven’t contributed anything there, but I can’t be bothered pointing out how and why what you say is rubbish

When you make personal insults like this, you forfeit the argument.

one point I will make - do you even understand what fetus in feto is? it seems not, otherwise you would not make that comment which is nonsensical in that context

Yes, I know what it is – it is (usually) a partially (and sometimes wholly) developed sibling that is incorporated into the body of another.

It is a human being. How could it be otherwise?

 

[jack_hawkins]

When you make personal insults like this, you forfeit the argument

not at all - you didn’t even refute my argument, saying “See how silly this line of argument is?” - hence my response
but strangely enough vern, there’s not a points system involved

Yes, I know what it is – it is (usually) a partially (and sometimes wholly) developed sibling that is incorporated into the body of another.
It is a human being. How could it be otherwise?

yes, I often find silly rhetorical questions like this are an attempt to hide a very weak argument
so what do you do to a human being when it is dead vern?
also, on what basis do you say the fetus in feto is a human being?

 

[vern_humphrey]

not at all - you didn’t even refute my argument, saying “See how silly this line of argument is?” - hence my response

you’ve been refuted long ago, jack’

but strangely enough vern, there’s not a points system involved
yes, I often find silly rhetorical questions like this are an attempt to hide a very weak argument

is that why you use them?

so what do you do to a human being when it is dead vern?

the normal practice is to bury it, although some prefer cremation, jack

also, on what basis do you say the fetus in feto is a human being?

does it have squirrel or rabbit dna, jack?

no, it has huuman dna

 

[jack_hawkins]

so how would you bury the fetus in feto when it’s dead vern?

human dna makes something a human being?
think about it carefully
if you do you will realise that is a ludicrous argument
if I pluck out a strand of hair with the follicle that has human DNA - does that require solemn burial with the full rites? think about vern
a bit of thought goes a long way

 

[StevenFrancis]

Are there any people on here who were at one time in their lives for abortion and now against it? Or anyone on here that is still for abortion?

I am genuinely curious about general arguments heard in the abortion debate. Did you, as a pro-choicer, believe these arguments, or was it more of a smokescreen or distraction?

For example, I have found in my own debating that the majority of accusations tossed at me are things such as:

“It’s not a person”

“It’s not a baby”

“You only care about babies, not women”

“Women will just go back to coat hangers if it’s made illegal”

“Abortion is needed in case a woman’s life is in danger”

In general, was there some experience in your life, or some authority/mentor figure who ingrained these beliefs in you? When arguing for abortion, was there a sincere belief that the pre-born child was human but not person, or that anti-abortion protestors had an agenda and didn’t care about women?

I’m sorry if any of this sounds leading. I’m not trying to bait, I really am curious. Because I know some people who honestly believe it’s not a person until it is completely removed from the birth canal. Or that pro-lifers are nuts who want to degrade women…etc.

What I am wondering is, did this belief form through taking a stance and needing an argument to hold onto? From personal experiences? Maybe secondhand stories? Or scare tactics from a leader?

Until I was knocked off my horse and struck blind, so to speak, I was virtually an entirely different person. My entire belief system, if you could call it that was flawed in almost every way. I believe my axioms were wrong. I was a relativist. If you start with a shaky foundation, (and relativism is as shaky a foundation as one may find), everything you build on it is questionable at best. As to the point of abortion, I thought since we had too many people on the planet, and these little things couldn’t feel anything, why not? More soup for the next guy in line. I even thought it might end the welfare cycle etc. I was really disgusting in retrospect. I also favored euthenasia. I was really a flash of lightning convert. I can’t even recognize myself before. Thankfully my wife converted shortly after, and just as dramatically, or I doubt I would have any link to my past whatsoever. So my old rationalizations were the women’s rights, too many unwanted people anyway, economics, babies can’t feel, life doesn’t begin until ?? (insert whatever is convenient here), etc. etc., blah blah blah. It all sounds so nosensacle to me now. Another life, another world. Praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ, who saves!! Believe you, me.

Peace,

Yours in Christ,

Steven

 

[vern_humphrey]

so how would you bury the fetus in feto when it’s dead vern?

the normal practice is to dig a hole, jack

human dna makes something a human being?

when it has its own dna, or in the case of an identical twin when it assumes its own form it becomes a being.

think about it carefully
if you do you will realise that is a ludicrous argument
if I pluck out a strand of hair with the follicle that has human DNA - does that require solemn burial with the full rites? think about vern
a bit of thought goes a long way

now there’s a ludicrous argument. does you hair have its own dna?

would you accept that someone has the right to kill another person on the street and use your argument to ‘prove’ the victim was not a human being?

why don’t you have squire trelawney proof-read your next post?

 

[jack_hawkins]

the normal practice is to dig a hole, jack

yes, I thought you would fall for that one, or perhaps into that one
so when the fetus in feto is dead you put it in a hole? full Christian burial?

when it has its own dna, or in the case of an identical twin when it assumes its own form it becomes a being.

yes, I thought you didn’t know what you were talking about
so you have just proved that a fetus in feto is not a human being - I knew if guided with some logical thought you could manage it
[quotenow **there’s a ludicrous argument. does you hair have its own dna?does an identical twin? I am just exposing the flaw in your ludicrous argument vern

 

[vern_humphrey]

yes, I thought you would fall for that one, or perhaps into that one
so when the fetus in feto is dead you put it in a hole? full Christian burial?

Certainly. What would you do with it, have it stuffed and put on the mantlepiece?

yes, I thought you didn’t know what you were talking about
so you have just proved that a fetus in feto is not a human being

I have? Please explain.

• I knew if guided with some logical thought you could manage it

now there’s

 

[MarkInOregon]

And if we view all unborn as possessing rights–upon what moral code do you refer and rely to legally define the beginning of human life and attach legal rights to it? Is when human life begins really a moral question? Isn’t it really a question for science? Once an egg is fertilized–if it is given nutrition and shelter–can it grow into anything but a human? On what grounds can we argue that it is not human? It seems we try to argue it is not human simply based on where it resides. An infant is not a child is not a teenager is not an adult but they are all human and all pocess the same DNA–which they pocessed at the moment of there conception–all development after that is simply the various stages of human life–its growth and development. I don’t think there is really any true scientific debate on that. Finally if there is a question shouldn’t we err on the side of caution.

Now the moral question is whether a society will choose to protect human life at its most vulnerable or whether it will make the moral choice that human life until birth has no value.

Our society however is conflicted–it will prosecute you for the murder of the unborn if you kill a pregnant woman while at the same time allowing an abortionist to kill that same unborn child–to me this is inconsistent–we allow the mother only to determine the value of the unborn–even though she is only one party to that creation.

Intentional drug/alcohol use or other risky/reckless behaviour? Actually some states have considered locking up drug and alcohol addicted pregnant woman in order to protect the health of their unborn–but that is a whole other can of worms.

Peace
Mark

 

[vern_humphrey]

That, of course is my point – all living human beings have the right to life. That sets up my “three part test.”

1. ** Is it living?** If it isn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
2. Is it human? Check the DNA. If it has mouse or rabbit DNA, then it’s a mouse or rabbit. If it has human DNA, it’s human.
3. Ah, but it is a being? Check the DNA again. If it has the mother’s DNA than it’s part of her body. But if it has its own DNA, it 's a being.

The right to life is inherent in the human condition. It isn’t granted to us by the government or by society. If it were, it wouldn’t be a right at all, only a privilige, which the grantor can withhold or revoke at will.

Who denies this denies the whole concept of Human Rights.

 

[hasikelee]

That, of course is my point – all living human beings have the right to life. That sets up my “three part test.”

1. Is it living? If it isn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
2. Is it human? Check the DNA. If it has mouse or rabbit DNA, then it’s a mouse or rabbit. If it has human DNA, it’s human.
3. Ah, but it is a being? Check the DNA again. If it has the mother’s DNA than it’s part of her body. But if it has its own DNA, it 's a being.

The right to life is inherent in the human condition. It isn’t granted to us by the government or by society. If it were, it wouldn’t be a right at all, only a privilige, which the grantor can withhold or revoke at will.

Who denies this denies the whole concept of Human Rights.

See, vern’s argument here is the approach I generally take. Although things such as twins, ensoulment, Church teaching, love and psychology are very interesting topics, I tend to find the strongest defense against abortion to be science.

Unfortunately, this stance proves to be the most difficulty to take as 90% of the people I meet who are involved in a pro-choice or abortion movement despise the concept of science in the abortion debate.

It also is very frustrating in general. I mean, this issue is so clear that classic logic and natural law scream against it. Many groups of people understand the peril of allowing abortion in a society. For example, gaysforlife and wiccansforlife understand how dangerous it is to take away personhood from others based simply on location, age, size, viability, sexual orientation, religion, skin color, gender and whatnot.

History repeats itself yet again.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Certainly. What would you do with it, have it stuffed and put on the mantlepiece?

I just find it amusing the things you say. How soon would you bury the deaf fetus in feto? within a week?
as for gamesmanship, vern, do you feel any sense of hypocrsiy making that comment?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I just find it amusing the things you say. How soon would you bury the deaf fetus in feto? within a week? as for gamesmanship, vern, do you feel any sense of hypocrsiy making that comment?

Perhaps you would have been enthralled by the now-closed thread on the Socratic Method.
:whacky:

 

[jack_hawkins]

so how soon should the dead “human being” in a case of fetus in feto be buried then vern?
within a week?
within a year?

 

[vern_humphrey]

so how soon should the dead “human being” in a case of fetus in feto be buried then vern?
within a week?
within a year?

When it is available for burial, Jack.

Now, your silly games tend to lower you. You have claimed to have a medical degree – but a doctor would hardly play childish games like this.

 

[jack_hawkins]

When it is available for burial, Jack

That’s hardly a Christian response vern - how are you treating that “human being” like any other human being?

Now, your silly games tend to lower you. You have claimed to have a medical degree – but a doctor would hardly play childish games like this.

I don’t claim anything. My “silly games” are the only way to demonstrate to you that your logic is flawed - since rational argument fails.

You claim to be Catholic - by the same token I don’t believe that either.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s hardly a Christian response vern - how are you treating that “human being” like any other human being?

Do you bury other human beings before the bodies are available for burial?

I don’t claim anything. My “silly games” are the only way to demonstrate to you that your logic is flawed - since rational argument fails.

Your silly games are silly games – juvenile. You don’t shine wen you act this way.

You claim to be Catholic - by the same token I don’t believe that either.

More childish attacks.

I really don’t care what you believe – particularly when you get into a snit like this.

But what you just posted is an infraction of the rules and a gentleman would apologize.

 

[jack_hawkins]

But what you just posted is an infraction of the rules and a gentleman would apologize.

when you apologise for what you posted, I will do likewise