Pro-Abortion & Catholic?

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FightingFat

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Would I be right in saying that it is impossible for you to be Catholic and pro-abortion?

Obviously, to agree with abortion directly contradicts the fifth commandment and the exegesis of said commandment as stated here vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

But is there a Church document that specifically states that agreeing with abortion constitutes self excommunication?

By way of explanation, basically the Pelosi thing has got so bad that a friend is saying to me that Catholics can be pro-abortion and if they couldn’t action would have been taken against Nancy Pelosi’s very public pro-abortion stance!!
 
I think that the Catholic Church has made it’s position very clear, even by our own Cardinal here in England. Just because the Catholic Church does not make a statement about everyone’s position on abortion does not mean that their position is neutral on the matter, and it certainly does not mean that it condones it.

The Catholic position is clear…the Catechism states it clearly enough in paragraphs 2270-2275.
“Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law” (CCC 2271)
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I think we need to really pray for those who are in Government who are practicing Catholic, that they put into practice their faith, and be a witness for their faith.
 
technically, there is no such thing as a pro-choice catholic,
in the same way that there is no such thing as a cafeteria catholic, we cannot pick and choose what is or isn’t right in the catholic church,
only the pope can decide those things, it is our duty to learn and believe our church teachings,
supporting abortion is not necessarily an automatic ex-communication, but to have one or take part in one is.
but the thing is, someone who is pro-choice can still convert, and as long as they have not taken part in someones abortion, then they have not directly committed an actual sin,
especially if they do not really see what they are doing,

i read through that page you listed, and the only thing they say about excommunication threw abortion is this-
"2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,“77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.”

i have read in many catholic books about excommunication for having or taking part in abortion, but i can’t bring to mind any catholic teaching that says you would be excommunicated for being pro-choice,

but the fact is, it is church doctrine that says abortion is murder and is a mortal sin, and it does not give any exceptions to it, abortion when done deliberately is wrong no matter what the case, and to deny any church doctrine is heresy.

do you know how excommunication works?
i haven’t heard one way or the other, but there’s a good chance Nancy Pelosi is already excommunicated,
excommunication is basically being denied of any sacraments, until the individual repents and is reconciled with the Church.
 
FightingFat said:
Would I be right in saying that it is impossible for you to be Catholic and pro-abortion?
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:twocents:
No, I would say you would be mistaken.

To be in a state of sin, even a state of grave sin, even to persist in a state of grave sin, is not the same thing as being excommunicate.
:twocents:

tee
Not A Canon Lawyer (But An Occasional Sinner)
 
I actually just completed an essay that takes a little different slant at this issue. You can read it here, but basically it is not out of judgment that bishops, clergy, and even the laity should dare to correct the wandering politician, but rather out of love.

To answer your question more directly, I don’t see how one can be in communion with the Church and be pro-abortion. As a previous poster said, one can be in a state of grave, mortal sin and still be Catholic…a perishing Catholic…but Catholic nonetheless.
 
According to a Canon Law:
  1. Abortion is a “latae sententiae” excommunication, which means that it is an automatic consequence of performing the act of abortion, getting the abortion, or morally and willingly cooperating in the procuring of an abortion.
  2. Nevertheless, for one to incur this penalty, one must be aware of the penalty of the excommunication attached to procuring an abortion.
  3. It would seem that if you are not aware of the penalty of excommunication you do not incurr it.
In my opinion, the candidate who votes for abortion in principle suggests involvement in procurement of abortion. This would be because the person voting is enabling abortion to be available. How it affects the choice of candidate I don’t know!

However, I agree with one of the other posters that one cannot be Catholic and pro choice. One can however be Catholic and believe and support a separation between Church and State (which is my position).

Karen
 
StCsDavid said:
I don’t see how one can be in communion with the Church and be pro-abortion. As a previous poster said, one can be in a state of grave, mortal sin and still be Catholic…a perishing Catholic…but Catholic nonetheless.
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I do not understand. :confused:

What is it you see in the pro-abortion stance than makes it exceptional wrt other grave sin? What clear teaching of the Church supports this?

To reiterate: Being unable to receive Communion is not the same as being excommunicate (nor otherwise non-Catholic).

tee
 
tee_eff_em said:
I do not understand. :confused:

What is it you see in the pro-abortion stance than makes it exceptional wrt other grave sin? What clear teaching of the Church supports this?

To reiterate: Being unable to receive Communion is not the same as being excommunicate (nor otherwise non-Catholic).

tee
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I guess I’m confused over your confusion of my confusion. I would agree that being unable to receive Eucharist is not the same as being excommunicated. One who is pro-abortion may or may not be in a state of mortal sin based on their own knowledge and consent, but the stance is equally grave regardless.

What makes it different is that magisterium of the Church has definitively declared that one who participates in this evil in essence excommunicates himself. I suppose one could argue that the net effect of dying in mortal sin is the same, but because abortion is so grave, so destructive, and so prevalent in the culture, the Church has taken a very definitive stand.
 
StCsDavid said:
What makes it different is that magisterium of the Church has definitively declared that one who participates in this evil in essence excommunicates himself.
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My confusion stems from my being unaware that the Church has extended this penalty to those with a pro-abortion stance.

Can you direct me to that definitive declaration? Thanks.

tee
 
tee_eff_em said:
My confusion stems from my being unaware that the Church has extended this penalty to those with a pro-abortion stance…
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This is my understanding:
“morally and willingly cooperating in the procuring of an abortion” leads to ex communication according to Canon Law.

This may include taking decisions and implementing policies that mean that abortion is available in society (Pro abortion stance), in other words it does not just apply to personal involvement in a particular abortion.Like you, I don’t know if it is correct

Karen
 
tee_eff_em said:
My confusion stems from my being unaware that the Church has extended this penalty to those with a pro-abortion stance.

Can you direct me to that definitive declaration? Thanks.

tee
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Refer to Canon 1398. I understand your question better, now. Were the Church to excommunicate one for being pro-abortion, that would likely be where it started to justify its reason.

There’s some element of subjectivity here as I doubt that one is excommunicated for privately holding the position that abortion be legal, but not acting upon such a belief. It seems sinful, but not necessarily rising to the gravity of excommunication. In the case of the politician, he is willfully proclaiming his belief contrary to the Church. He is taking a direct action by his position alone as he is a public figure in a leadership position.

Hope that helps.
 
There seems to be some confusion about what excommunication is.

Excommunication is not being thrown out of the Church. It is to be excluded from the Eucharist. It is meant to be curative, not punishing.

Ruthie
 
Ruthie said:
There seems to be some confusion about what excommunication is.

Excommunication is not being thrown out of the Church. It is to be excluded from the Eucharist. It is meant to be curative, not punishing.
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Excommunication is to be excluded from all of the sacraments (and then some). cf Canon 1331

tee
 
Perhaps I still misunderstand you? Is it the case that:
StCsDavid said:
I don’t see how one can be in communion with the Church and be pro-abortion.
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Though you, personally, do not see how one can be in communion with the Church and be pro-abortion…
StCsDavid said:
Were the Church to excommunicate one for being pro-abortion, that would likely be where it started to justify its reason.
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…you admit that the Church does not appear to recognize a state of excommunication among those of pro-abortion stance?

tee
 
Perhaps privately holding the beleif that abortion is permissible, but not acting on it is a position that is close to heresy, rather than leading to ex-communication? I don’t know.

This means that one is disagreeing with a teaching of the Church, but because it is not an article of faith one is not a heretic(?). It is a belief that could lead one to heresy by rejecting the Articles of Faith. The argument, I think, is that if one rejects one aspect of the teachings its then easier and more likely to reject others.

BTW: Automatic ex-communication only occurs when the person knows that the action/belief leads to ex-communication. Once they have been told they are ex-communicated unless they receive the sacrament of reconciliation.

Karen
 
The other thing is that ex-communication is exclusion from all of the sacraments. If it was solely exclusion form the Eucharist, then people who are divorced are ex-communicated as they cannot take communion. That is clearly not the case. Nor are others in mortal sin ex-communicated although they too are taught not to take Communion.

Karen
 
Fran65 said:
According to a Canon Law:
  1. Abortion is a “latae sententiae” excommunication, which means that it is an automatic consequence of performing the act of abortion, getting the abortion, or morally and willingly cooperating in the procuring of an abortion.
  2. Nevertheless, for one to incur this penalty, one must be aware of the penalty of the excommunication attached to procuring an abortion.
  3. It would seem that if you are not aware of the penalty of excommunication you do not incurr it.
In my opinion, the candidate who votes for abortion in principle suggests involvement in procurement of abortion. This would be because the person voting is enabling abortion to be available. How it affects the choice of candidate I don’t know!

However, I agree with one of the other posters that one cannot be Catholic and pro choice. One can however be Catholic and believe and support a separation between Church and State (which is my position).

Karen
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If we were to go back to the beginning of this country, on what were our state and federal laws based? I also believe in separation of church and state, but the crime of abortion concerns neither a state, federal, nor church law, but a moral one. Any one having a sense of morality, of intrinsic good, would see that abortion is the greatest crime because it is committed against those least able to defend themselves.
 
Fran65 said:
The other thing is that ex-communication is exclusion from all of the sacraments. If it was solely exclusion form the Eucharist, then people who are divorced are ex-communicated as they cannot take communion.
Code: 
That is clearly not the case. Nor are others in mortal sin
ex-communicated although they too are taught not to take Communion.
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:ehh: *Clearly *not, since divorce is neither a reason to be excluded from the Eucharist, nor otherwise a mortal sin (other things being equal).

tee
 
elts1956 said:
Any one having a sense of morality, of intrinsic good, would see that abortion is the greatest crime because it is committed against those least able to defend themselves.
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Please be very clear that I am not defending abortion! I am against abortion in all its forms.

I was simply saying that a separation between Church and State is desirable for many reasons.

The State may choose to allow abortion, but *I * would not knowingly vote for any politician or party that supports abortion.

Karen
 
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