Pro ALL life -

[bbarrick8383]

I am new to Catholicism, and learning alot about it everyday. I heard that it was custom to eat fish on Good Friday…my wife had already had some beef stew prepared, we really arent into the traditions of the Catholic faith yet, hoping to make them a part of our family as we learn though.

Did you guys not eat a nice juicy lemon and herb encrusted salmon, sword fish steak(yummy), catfish filet, bass, trout or anything for Good Friday?

 

[Shin]

If I thought people who became vegans did so for reasons that were proper generally I would be more supportive of it, but generally the components of the decision to become a vegan from my own experience and from reading the news and literature are in fact, morally flawed.

A person who takes up veganism for mortification and spiritual reasons is something I highly support. I.E., it is unpleasant and a sacrifice for a person to do this.

A person taking up veganism talking of ‘sustainable resources’, ‘health issues’, or taking a moral high ground compared to meat eaters, etc. shows me the person is involve more or less with a movement whose goals and base motivations are against Catholic thought, not for it – born separate from it and opposed to it whereever it disagrees with Catholicism, and more religious than scientific in actual nature.

And people that become this serious about veganism for these reasons really are fixated on it and have a fetish for it. It is similar to other health fixations and fetishes, whether it’s ‘gluten free’ diets, or some other new health fad. Women seem particularly more vulnerable to these. They follow one after the other, and somehow still believe in them all and follow the next, after discarding the last.

So… my thought… be a person who only eats your vegetables IF your motivations are rightly ordered… IF NOT then eat meat for the sake of your soul…

IF your motivations are rightly ordered be certain to stay cut free from the vegan movement generally and its literature because its bad psychology and propaganda is going to disrupt your world view, and give you false ideas that of course because they are false are harmful generally to you and those you share them with, and also distract from your focus which should be on your spiritual life – not your spiritual life in regards to vegetables and ‘sustainable resources’ which is basically a little idol.

 

[4elise]

I am new to Catholicism, and learning alot about it everyday. I heard that it was custom to eat fish on Good Friday…my wife had already had some beef stew prepared, we really arent into the traditions of the Catholic faith yet, hoping to make them a part of our family as we learn though.

Did you guys not eat a nice juicy lemon and herb encrusted salmon, sword fish steak(yummy), catfish filet, bass, trout or anything for Good Friday?

When I grew up we didn’t eat meat on any Friday - we usually had mac and cheese.
In recent years it is only during Lent that Catholics are asked to abstain from meat - now the reasons of self denial - and on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, adults are also asked to fast - EWTN has a good article on this:

ewtn.com/faith/lent/fast.htm

So - if the purpose is for self denial I am not sure about the big salmon steak - we have one parish that by us that does a big fish fry on Fridays during Lent - a really fancy meal - our parish does a simple soup on Fridays during Lent following the Stations of the Cross - to me this may be more in keeping with the theology behind the idea!

 

[4elise]

If I thought people who became vegans did so for reasons that were proper generally I would be more supportive of it, but generally the components of the decision to become a vegan from my own experience and from reading the news and literature are in fact, morally flawed.

I wonder if you read the second post in this thread? It is because of my understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church, that as I learned about issues related to the way food is produced on a large scale in the US today - that what I learned made sense to me in light of my faith and this teaching.

A person who takes up veganism for mortification and spiritual reasons is something I highly support. I.E., it is unpleasant and a sacrifice for a person to do this.

A person taking up veganism talking of ‘sustainable resources’, ‘health issues’, or taking a moral high ground compared to meat eaters, etc. shows me the person is involve more or less with a movement whose goals and base motivations are against Catholic thought, not for it – born separate from it and opposed to it whereever it disagrees with Catholicism, and more religious than scientific in actual nature.

My understanding of our faith is that we are called to care about ‘sustainable resources’, ‘health issues’ and always strive to do what we believe is moral - I am really trying to have this discussion without judging anyone else’s understanding of this - and I have not yet been told, shown, where this choice disagrees with Catholicism.

And people that become this serious about veganism for these reasons really are fixated on it and have a fetish for it. It is similar to other health fixations and fetishes, whether it’s ‘gluten free’ diets, or some other new health fad. Women seem particularly more vulnerable to these. They follow one after the other, and somehow still believe in them all and follow the next, after discarding the last.

So… my thought… be a person who only eats your vegetables IF your motivations are rightly ordered… IF NOT then eat meat for the sake of your soul…

I am going to try not to take exception to how derisive this comment seems - and assume that you have had a ‘bad experience’ with someone for whom their food choice took over their lives ---- however like the maryjk who posted on this thread earlier — ‘gluten free’ diet is often the result of a pretty serious medical condition and should not be confused with choice.

My second post on this thread was to outline my motivations as I see they fit with Catholic Social teaching - and since I believe this - at this point if I were to do otherwise I think I would be compromising myself

IF your motivations are rightly ordered be certain to stay cut free from the vegan movement generally and its literature because its bad psychology and propaganda is going to disrupt your world view, and give you false ideas that of course because they are false are harmful generally to you and those you share them with, and also distract from your focus which should be on your spiritual life – not your spiritual life in regards to vegetables and ‘sustainable resources’ which is basically a little idol.

I agree - anything including food choice can - if put out of order - can become dangerous to ones spirituality - potentially violating the first commandment. Even one’s family can, one’s job can, a good cause can, and any form of moral superiority can.

So… the reason for this thread was to discuss how a vegan choice does - for me - fit my understanding of Catholic Social Teaching - and to ask if this made sense to anyone else…

 

[Michaelo]

A person taking up veganism talking of ‘sustainable resources’, ‘health issues’, or taking a moral high ground compared to meat eaters, etc. shows me the person is involve more or less with a movement whose goals and base motivations are against Catholic thought, not for it

Really? Please specifically demonstrate why these motivations for being vegan run contrary to Catholic teachings.

 

[4elise]

Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans - just started a new group — if you are interested you are most welcome!

 

[Marfran]

I am new to Catholicism, and learning alot about it everyday. I heard that it was custom to eat fish on Good Friday…my wife had already had some beef stew prepared, we really arent into the traditions of the Catholic faith yet, hoping to make them a part of our family as we learn though.

Did you guys not eat a nice juicy lemon and herb encrusted salmon, sword fish steak(yummy), catfish filet, bass, trout or anything for Good Friday?

This custom of Catholics illustrates how things begin for certain reasons, and then the reason is lost somewhere down the road, but the custom continues and evovles into something that does not resemble the original intention whatsoever.

Fridays in Lent we are asked to fast and/or abstain from meat as a form of penance. We are asked to give something up (meat) that we enjoy (the general population), and contemplate Christ’s suffering and crucifiction.

Supposedly eating fish is less desirable or enjoyable than eating meat, and if you eat a sparse meal and are hungry, you will be reminded (in a small way) of what Christ gave up for us, of his 40 days of fasting in the desert…

The original idea was to eat sparsely on certain days in the Church calendar (Lent), to sacrifice, to give up…

I am sad that this has all been transformed to Fish Fry Friday. Where I live–in a large metropolitan city–Catholics swarm in droves to restaurants to get the best, the all-you-can-eat, fish fry or other seafood options. Generally the original meat meal given up is replaced by a superior seafood meal–sometimes beer-battered, sometimes pecan encrusted, all-you-can-eat-shrimp, lobster, mahi-mahi, etc., etc… And with the Fish Frys goes a lot of partying and drinking too. (I know a lot of people do observe the original intention of this rule–I am just sad that many do not.)

 

[4elise]

The original idea was to eat sparsely on certain days in the Church calendar (Lent), to sacrifice, to give up…/QUOTE]

I think the theology is the same today… however as you note:
Marfran;5086765:

I am sad that this has all been transformed to Fish Fry Friday. Where I live–in a large metropolitan city–Catholics swarm in droves to restaurants to get the best, the all-you-can-eat, fish fry or other seafood options. Generally the original meat meal given up is replaced by a superior seafood meal–sometimes beer-battered, sometimes pecan encrusted, all-you-can-eat-shrimp, lobster, mahi-mahi, etc., etc… And with the Fish Frys goes a lot of partying and drinking too. (I know a lot of people do observe the original intention of this rule–I am just sad that many do not.)

This is where our parishes could be offering leadership - but you get a group in the parish that wants to use a fish fry as a fund raiser and it easily gets out of perspective!

 

[bbarrick8383]

I grew up on fish fries. My uncles used to spend all their time on the Red River. My other side of the family owns a little well known catfish restraunt overlooking the river. Has its own dirt landing strip. Last time I was there a helicopter landed right in front of us as we were walking out.

swaviator.com/html/issueJJ00/burgerjj00.html

Has a few pictures, it doesnt really do justice to the view they have there.

 

[4elise]

I grew up on fish fries. My uncles used to spend all their time on the Red River. My other side of the family owns a little well known catfish restraunt overlooking the river. Has its own dirt landing strip. Last time I was there a helicopter landed right in front of us as we were walking out.

swaviator.com/html/issueJJ00/burgerjj00.html

Has a few pictures, it doesnt really do justice to the view they have there.

Yikes - not criticizing the ‘fish fry’ any other time of year — but when we are being called to ‘give up’ something perhaps a simple soup dinner would be more in keeping with the idea then something people look forward to so much - just a thought…

 

[bbarrick8383]

Yikes - not criticizing the ‘fish fry’ any other time of year — but when we are being called to ‘give up’ something perhaps a simple soup dinner would be more in keeping with the idea then something people look forward to so much - just a thought…

Lol, I know. My wife and I have a lot to learn about Catholic traditions. Her family was Catholic but they did not raise her in the religion so she is just about as new as I am. But fish fries are still good.

 

[Rat_Doctor]

Hi 4elise! I got your notice re: this thread from another one and thought I’d check this one out. I looked over about 3 pages and must applaud you for your meekness, patience, humility, gentleness, and sense of humor (not sure if that last one is a virtue) It seems to me that a lot of typing would have been spared if subsequent posters had just read your first 2 explanatory posts
I did read your introductory posts to this thread pretty carefully and must say that I agree completely. I’m a Catholic revert (but always Christian) but have been vegetarian/vegan for much longer (25yrs). As I mentioned in my previous post, I have, through the years of pondering, praying about and defending my dietary habits, heard most of the arguments against this way of eating, and am more than ever convinced that it is in total accord with Catholic Social Teaching to choose to have respect for ourselves, our natural resources, our little brothers and sisters (yes, I’m Franciscan–another whole topic!), and especially our fellow humans by avoiding as much as possible the abuse prevalent in factory farming as well as monoculture agribusiness and the enslavement of peoples through “cash crops”. The issues are myriad and very intimately interconnected.
Others have asked you for the answers ne Oklahoma-ian (?!) asking what would happen if the cattle ranchers were to cut all the barbed wire; one asking if all the cows would become extinct; one questioning the wisdom of “selling the grain fed to cattle to the starving people”. These, imho, reflect a lot of the fears and doubts of those uneducated regarding the issues (health, humaneness, environment) and, simply, I don’t know if I have the patience to educate–I usually refer to some book as that’s where I got most of my info. Of course, the first book being the Bible, the creation of man as vegan, but we won’t go there

Anyhow, I guess I just wanted you to know you are not alone, and that I for one, would be very happy to have a more “serious” discussion on this thread.

(L-o-n-g post, sorry) Real quick…you asked at the beginning whether or not I have any questions or difficulties regarding my dietary (and lifestyle as I believe a vegan also avoids leather,wool, silk, etc?!) and my Catholic faith and the answer is a real, short “no, but thanks for asking”

BTW love your title for this thread–whenever I hear the term “pro-life” from the pulpit, TV, etc, I always, always (can’t even help myself anymore) ask why not “pro ALL life”!!!
And (last point for now…) love the kiss for the Pope:thumbsup:
I’ll stop now

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Of course, the first book being the Bible, the creation of man as vegan, but we won’t go there

Good!! It can’t be much fun for you to lose an argument before it starts.

There it is by the way the “my diet is better than yours because” blah blah blah. This attitude of being greater and more in line with “how God designed creation so humans could be vegans” is the same attitude that causes this discussion to devolve into pages of posting every time. I just happened to catch it in print.

 

[Rat_Doctor]

sigh*

 

[Rat_Doctor]

Good!! It can’t be much fun for you to lose an argument before it starts.

There it is by the way the “my diet is better than yours because” blah blah blah. This attitude of being greater and more in line with “how God designed creation so humans could be vegans” is the same attitude that causes this discussion to devolve into pages of posting every time. I just happened to catch it in print.

OK, I took my deep breath…and read through your discussions more carefully on this thread. It saddens me that you have jumped to such conclusions about me! I merely stated that my diet choices are in accord with Catholic Social Teaching (CST, please?) not mandated by them (see 4elise’s post#2). Nor did I get into the whole Bible and diet thing (NB the winky icon!) b/c I have had a long life of hearing and studying and getting preached at by our brother and sister “bible-thumpers” and I am convinced few people win when that kind of discussion begins.
As I indicated, I have been into this topic (God and animals) my entire life (well, since the age of reason, whenever that is!) so my conclusions are my* conclusions. I realize and readily acknowledge that most will not see things my way and many will not even understand–which is why I jumped in here, b/c it seems that 4elise and her ilk do!
I live in an agriculturally dependent rural, hunting areas. Some of my best friends are hunters and farmers–seriously:thumbsup: Please, please, please don’t assume I am judging anyone. I am very aware of the sinner that I am;I am very aware that I can be in error; I am very aware that I still have a lot to learn!!!
However, I also am very well-versed in human nutrition reading everything I can about it for about 35 yrs, and my 30 yrs of professional training and practice (I’m a veterinarian, small animal) make me acutely aware of the differences between species as well as the fact that there’s a lot more to them than human society generally gives them credit for.
And, yes, I am Franciscan and so value our “little brothers and sisters” in a way, again, probably different than most.
But, Sean, please, I would never presume to think of myself as better than anyone, especially b/c of what we eat??!!
I am sorry if I offended you, but honestly, no offense was meant–I just meant to give 4elise a pat on the back:shrug:*

 

[4elise]

Hi 4elise! I got your notice re: this thread from another one and thought I’d check this one out. I looked over about 3 pages and must applaud you for your meekness, patience, humility, gentleness, and sense of humor (not sure if that last one is a virtue) It seems to me that a lot of typing would have been spared if subsequent posters had just read your first 2 explanatory posts
I did read your introductory posts to this thread pretty carefully and must say that I agree completely. I’m a Catholic revert (but always Christian) but have been vegetarian/vegan for much longer (25yrs). As I mentioned in my previous post, I have, through the years of pondering, praying about and defending my dietary habits, heard most of the arguments against this way of eating, and am more than ever convinced that it is in total accord with Catholic Social Teaching to choose to have respect for ourselves, our natural resources, our little brothers and sisters (yes, I’m Franciscan–another whole topic!), and especially our fellow humans by avoiding as much as possible the abuse prevalent in factory farming as well as monoculture agribusiness and the enslavement of peoples through “cash crops”. The issues are myriad and very intimately interconnected.
Others have asked you for the answers ne Oklahoma-ian (?!) asking what would happen if the cattle ranchers were to cut all the barbed wire; one asking if all the cows would become extinct; one questioning the wisdom of “selling the grain fed to cattle to the starving people”. These, imho, reflect a lot of the fears and doubts of those uneducated regarding the issues (health, humaneness, environment) and, simply, I don’t know if I have the patience to educate–I usually refer to some book as that’s where I got most of my info. Of course, the first book being the Bible, the creation of man as vegan, but we won’t go there

Anyhow, I guess I just wanted you to know you are not alone, and that I for one, would be very happy to have a more “serious” discussion on this thread.

(L-o-n-g post, sorry) Real quick…you asked at the beginning whether or not I have any questions or difficulties regarding my dietary (and lifestyle as I believe a vegan also avoids leather,wool, silk, etc?!) and my Catholic faith and the answer is a real, short “no, but thanks for asking”

BTW love your title for this thread–whenever I hear the term “pro-life” from the pulpit, TV, etc, I always, always (can’t even help myself anymore) ask why not “pro ALL life”!!!
And (last point for now…) love the kiss for the Pope:thumbsup:
I’ll stop now

I am so grateful for your weighing in and truly appreciate your kind comments - and would also invite you to join us over on the groups - I’ve begun a Catholic Vegetarian / Vegan group to share resources etc… and with your years I know we could all learn so much from you too! Blessings,