Pro ALL life -

[4elise]

I’m glad I made you laugh, I try to be corny as much as possible. I’ve been to San Fran airport, but thats about it. I figured the liberal people there would have run the stinky farms out. I heard they did not want the windturbine farms in certain areas because they didnt want their “skyline polluted”.

Well, I know lots of folks call CA the land of fruit and nuts… but it is a very big agri state - if you drove from LA to San Francisco up the 5 you couldn’t miss the cows! You can smell them about 15 minutes before you can see them! The windturbine farm is east of San Fran goes on for miles!

 

[monorail]

I’ve read this thread with great interest. I eat a mostly plant-based diet, and I possibly might have gone all the way if not for my spouse who hates most vegetables, whole grains, legumes, and nuts. (That really doesn’t leave much, except meat.)

I am looking at it from a health viewpoint, as that is what I have thought most about on my own.

I’ve read a lot of contradicting reports though as to what our body was designed to process (primarily meat-based versus primarily plant-base diets). The factors I’ve read about are centenarian studies (point to humans as omnivores), paleolithic diet (omnivorous), physiological clues (herbivorous), Christian religious data (Jesus ate and farmed fish), and B12 deficiency in vegans (omnivorous). It seems we are designed heavily towards a plant-based diet (leafy/cruciferous vegs, fruits, seeds, nuts, etc.) with a smattering of meat. The vegan diet bothers me health-wise in that it lacks B12, which makes it fundamentally incomplete for humans. (I consider a “complete” diet one which does not need to rely on vitamins or fortified foods to make up for any holes.) I am also a bit bothered by the lack of EPA and DHA omega-3s in plant-based diets. (This is not as fundamental since the body *can *convert ALA omega-3s found from plants into the other two types, though it’s not very efficient.)

Also taking into account your other points, I agree it would be nice to see a shift to a more plant-based diet. Our collective health would improve and it would free up resources. However, I don’t think I agree that *completely *cutting out meat/seafood is a sustainable or ideal diet.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Because a starvation diet doesn’t seem to be in line with the most basic of Catholic Social Teaching - Life and Dignity of the Human Person - to starve oneself would not be in keeping with this.

A diet of 1000 calories a day or less is considered a starvation diet by the USDA, but people live on this diet and lead very health lives. The human body is an amazing thing. Now you consume more than 1000 calories a day (I would be very certain of this), therefore you consume more than you need to live. You are comsuming more resource than you need to live. You have just fallen into the catagory as the rest of us omnivores, comsuming more rescource than you need.

I am proposing - by giving lots of information on the healthy benefits of a vegan diet - that this choice may be more in line with this teaching. I propose that given your criteria your not doing enough, you could do more to consume less.

I am not sure what extreme you are talking about - eating more than one needs - vegan or not is wrong, right?

Are you eating more than you need? Isn’t that wrong, according to you? Can you reduce your intake further?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

4elise;5059703}:

I provide meat for my family by hunting. Where were you going with this?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Speaking for myself - I know I don’t want to add to how difficult your jobs are - and I’m not saying that with a wink - are there any family farmers who change from raising animals to producing beans for human consumption?

I believe she already said that in some regions the land will not sustain crop production. Those areas that can sustain crop production do, those that can’t don’t. That is how we determine what becomes pasture to raise cattle. The land is not good for anything else beside growing native grasses for pasture.

 

[maryjk]

Do you do a lot of hunting?

Not anymore, but I did growing up. In fact for my 13th birthday, I received my very own shotgun.

 

[maryjk]

I provide meat for my family by hunting. Where were you going with this?

The question was because I said God made me a predator, that I have eyes in the front of my head.

But I am sure that since I used a gun, and not my claws and teeth to hunt, that isn’t real predator behavior.

 

[4elise]

Are you eating more than you need? Isn’t that wrong, according to you? Can you reduce your intake further?

You’ve got me there Sean - I certainly do eat more than 1000 calories of a vegan diet, (I’m a very good cook!) and I think I understand now that you are proposing that it is hypocritical of me to suggest that my choice therefore is supported by Catholic Social Teaching.

I actually agree that we shouldn’t use more than we need in general to help ensure everyone can have enough, could I do better, yup - can I look to my faith to guide all my daily choices not only in what they are, but in quantity too - yes.

As an example - a missionary priest I heard arrived at his parish in Africa where he needed to hand wash his laundry - so he thought “I’ll do this every two weeks since I have enough clothes for two weeks” After two weeks he hung out his clothes which included his undergarments - shirts and shorts - he came back to take them down and found only two of each - at first he was really upset but realized that he had been left what the (very poor) people thought he needed - one to wear and one to wash

We could always do better, right? - but that shouldn’t stop us from doing what we can?

 

[4elise]

I’ve read this thread with great interest. I eat a mostly plant-based diet, and I possibly might have gone all the way if not for my spouse who hates most vegetables, whole grains, legumes, and nuts. (That really doesn’t leave much, except meat.)

I am looking at it from a health viewpoint, as that is what I have thought most about on my own.

I’ve read a lot of contradicting reports though as to what our body was designed to process (primarily meat-based versus primarily plant-base diets). The factors I’ve read about are centenarian studies (point to humans as omnivores), paleolithic diet (omnivorous), physiological clues (herbivorous), Christian religious data (Jesus ate and farmed fish), and B12 deficiency in vegans (omnivorous). It seems we are designed heavily towards a plant-based diet (leafy/cruciferous vegs, fruits, seeds, nuts, etc.) with a smattering of meat. The vegan diet bothers me health-wise in that it lacks B12, which makes it fundamentally incomplete for humans. (I consider a “complete” diet one which does not need to rely on vitamins or fortified foods to make up for any holes.) I am also a bit bothered by the lack of EPA and DHA omega-3s in plant-based diets. (This is not as fundamental since the body *can *convert ALA omega-3s found from plants into the other two types, though it’s not very efficient.)

Also taking into account your other points, I agree it would be nice to see a shift to a more plant-based diet. Our collective health would improve and it would free up resources. However, I don’t think I agree that *completely *cutting out meat/seafood is a sustainable or ideal diet.

You bring up some really important health issues that always need to be considered. I guess like everything - when making such a big shift it is important to make sure you are covering all your nutritional bases - I’ve understood that flax seed oil dressings, crushed flax seed and walnuts are good sources of the omega-3 - B12 however as you say is more difficult to include, I’ve read that although many consider things like seaweed, miso, tempeh, etc… they are not really the kind that the body can use - so I try to also include foods that are B12 fortified - and in looking into this just now I found that one source I thought was good - a nutritional yeast that I buy on-line - may not be! Apparently I should be purchasing Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula nutritional yeast, keep it in the fridge and don’t heat it - add to meals at the end) Thanks for bringing this up - I do take a B12 supplement about once a week -

 

[BiologyBrain]

are there any family farmers who change from raising animals to producing beans for human consumption?

I guess I don’t understand the point of your question. There are numerous family farmers that do both - raise animals and produce plants for human consumption. There are numerous family farmers that only produce plants for human consumption. There are numerous family farms that only produce animals for human consumption (w/ crops for animal consumption or not). What does that prove?

 

[4elise]

I guess I don’t understand the point of your question. There are numerous family farmers that do both - raise animals and produce plants for human consumption. There are numerous family farmers that only produce plants for human consumption. There are numerous family farms that only produce animals for human consumption (w/ crops for animal consumption or not). What does that prove?

Wasn’t trying to prove anything - was just asking a question.

One of the things I have come across is the assertion (I don’t know this personally) that a square acre of land that raises animal protein / vs a square acre of land that produces vegetable protein - a greater amount is produced per square acre when it is veggie protein. (different sources say between 5 to 10 times more if veggie)

 

[4elise]

I provide meat for my family by hunting. Where were you going with this?

Maryjk is right my question was because of her note about eyes in front of her head…

Sean - I don’t doubt that you make your choices and live your faith in support of your family. Since you do hunt I understand that a discussion like this ( vegan / vegetarian / ethical food production) might feel like a judgment on that choice - speaking for myself I haven’t offered it in that light - but rather how **my faith has informed my food choice. ** - obviously it doesn’t resonate for you - and I apologize if you have heard this as though I was passing judgment -

 

[Sean_Boyle]

You’ve got me there Sean - I certainly do eat more than 1000 calories of a vegan diet, (I’m a very good cook!) and I think I understand now that you are proposing that it is hypocritical of me to suggest that my choice therefore is supported by Catholic Social Teaching.

I actually agree that we shouldn’t use more than we need in general to help ensure everyone can have enough, could I do better, yup - can I look to my faith to guide all my daily choices not only in what they are, but in quantity too - yes.

As an example - a missionary priest I heard arrived at his parish in Africa where he needed to hand wash his laundry - so he thought “I’ll do this every two weeks since I have enough clothes for two weeks” After two weeks he hung out his clothes which included his undergarments - shirts and shorts - he came back to take them down and found only two of each - at first he was really upset but realized that he had been left what the (very poor) people thought he needed - one to wear and one to wash

We could always do better, right? - but that shouldn’t stop us from doing what we can?

Oh thank goodness, you understand the point that I was trying to make. Sorry it took me so long to explain in a way that was understandable, my fault.

We can always do better. yes

I like to believe that all of us are already doing what we can, guided by faith, as you has correctly suggested in what we consume and how we utilize the resource that God has placed before us.

Discussions on factory farming and over consumption make me wonder who is being talked about. I know of no one that believes animal should be abused or tortured to death. I know no one that believes factory farming should be the norm. I know of no one that believes that they have a right to over consume. What is being fought against? The idea that there are some bad apples in society that do these things? There will always be bad apples in everything. They are called bad apples because their values don’t match that of our society.

Does this discussion serve to galvanize the “us” in society against the bad apples or is it’s purpose to challenge us to do more even though most of us do challenge ourselves as part of our faith?

 

[4elise]

Oh thank goodness, you understand the point that I was trying to make. Sorry it took me so long to explain in a way that was understandable, my fault.

We can always do better. yes

I like to believe that all of us are already doing what we can, guided by faith, as you has correctly suggested in what we consume and how we utilize the resource that God has placed before us.

Discussions on factory farming and over consumption make me wonder who is being talked about. I know of no one that believes animal should be abused or tortured to death. I know no one that believes factory farming should be the norm. I know of no one that believes that they have a right to over consume. What is being fought against? The idea that there are some bad apples in society that do these things? There will always be bad apples in everything. They are called bad apples because their values don’t match that of our society.

Does this discussion serve to galvanize the “us” in society against the bad apples or is it’s purpose to challenge us to do more even though most of us do challenge ourselves as part of our faith?

It took us a while Sean - but we both hung in there to find the base of this discussion - thanks! ---- lets keep at it… I hope we are always challenging ourselves and each other to do more as part of our faith -

Just like the omnivores who get frustrated when the vegans seem to be imposing choices - as a vegan who is motivated to this choice by my faith - it is very frustrating to have people make assumptions about that too.

On other threads about this topic I’ve read really cruel comments that seem to sanction cruelty - a ‘who cares about the animals’ attitude - who cares if they are poorly treated, they are for our consumption so it doesn’t matter - someone posted something about cooking animals alive and there were several who responded with ‘that sounds good’ kind of comments …

Yes it is the bad apples - but on the scale that factory farming is done - I believe that the bad apples have in fact spoiled the bunch. The majority of Americans don’t raise their own animals to eat - or hunt… most of us just shop at a grocery store and can buy the little clean packages of ground cow, or pig chops, or chicken breasts - most of us are so disconnected from the source and then NEVER question how that got here, what resources were used - I can buy produce from Chili! That seems a complete waste of resources - shipping fruit thousands and thousands of miles - so - yes I hope we continue to challenge each other always - this is what I believe a community of faith should do. So maybe someone read this thread and considered - hey where did my burger come from? How did it get here? - I do believe everyone does the best we can but we can also always learn and try to do more - I’ve only been doing this for a few years because that is when I learned about it…

You are able to access meat from non factory farmed sources - most of us don’t have that opportunity - so here is the therefore that I think you and I actually agree upon – Therefore I (and others like me) should consider a vegan diet because those bad apples are the ones running the show (and this pertains to the issues of resources, pollution and the way animals are treated) - and as you say ----- whatever we are eating / consuming - we need to ensure we aren’t using more than is just.

 

[bbarrick8383]

View attachment 5582

Just thought I’d share this photo I took this morning.

Me and the wife were talking about going with some friends and taking the kids to this place nearby called G.W. Exotic Animal Park. I went to their web site earlier and found an interesting link they have about PETA. Read the articles and on further down, there is some good info there.

gwpark.org/newkirk.html

 

[4elise]

View attachment 5582

Just thought I’d share this photo I took this morning.

Me and the wife were talking about going with some friends and taking the kids to this place nearby called G.W. Exotic Animal Park. I went to their web site earlier and found an interesting link they have about PETA. Read the articles and on further down, there is some good info there.

gwpark.org/newkirk.html

Beautiful photo!
I was thinking of you today bbarrick - hoping you and your family weren’t impacted by the OK fires - hope you and yours are doing ok in OK …

Many people who are passionate about an issue can take that step too far - and I certainly agree that there are animal rights people whose actions can not be condoned - I’d never argue with you on that. I think once they have made that step they obviously loose credibility - of course animal rights people don’t have the corner on this behavior
there are pro life activists who killed doctors - they hurt the pro life community terribly by doing so because people outside then lumped all pro life people of faith into the the group with the ones who went too far - hopefully our faith helps us check that impulse

 

[bbarrick8383]

Beautiful photo!
I was thinking of you today bbarrick - hoping you and your family weren’t impacted by the OK fires - hope you and yours are doing ok in OK …

Many people who are passionate about an issue can take that step too far - and I certainly agree that there are animal rights people whose actions can not be condoned - I’d never argue with you on that. I think once they have made that step they obviously loose credibility - of course animal rights people don’t have the corner on this behavior
there are pro life activists who killed doctors - they hurt the pro life community terribly by doing so because people outside then lumped all pro life people of faith into the the group with the ones who went too far - hopefully our faith helps us check that impulse

I appreciate the thoughts, the smoke is thick around us but the fires so far have been a little ways from me. The closest one was about 5 or 6 miles north, which I was working nearby when it got out of control. I’ve never seen so much smoke before.

I agree with you, I was suprised to stumble upon that link though. We may visit that place tomorrow. I dont know how some people can go to the lengths they do for “their” cause. It’s so unfortunate that normal people have to live with and put up with crazy folk.

 

[4elise]

With deference to my new friend bbarack in OK - I’d like to have a discussion specifically on dairy - factory farming dairy - in light of the original post…

health / environment / communities / stewardship and yes how the animals are cared for when they aren’t fortunate enough to be on a small family farm.

associatedcontent.com/article/313303/the_ugly_side_of_dairy_factory_farming.html

Have you - or are you considering giving up dairy? Some vegetarians I know go a long time having like dairy free days, or only have dairy on weekends -

 

[Michaelo]

The health benefits associated with vegetarian/vegan diets reduce health care costs, so ultimately it might be wiser to purchase more expensive organic produce because of long-term money savings. I think of it as an investment in health.

This article explores in more detail the financial benefits of a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.

 

[4elise]

The health benefits associated with vegetarian/vegan diets reduce health care costs, so ultimately it might be wiser to purchase more expensive organic produce because of long-term money savings. I think of it as an investment in health.

This article explores in more detail the financial benefits of a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.

Another good point I know when money is tight it is hard to have that long term view - but this is a great way to look at it!