Pro ALL life -

[bbarrick8383]

Honestly, I sincerely worry about those who choose to be vegan. Their health and/or the health of their decendants could possible be affected by not eating some meat I believe. So, if you are young and do not have children, but plan to. Think about just having a healthy balance, and choosing the right food to eat. My beef is a lot healthier than the beef most people get.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

So, I offer the following hoping to open a REAL discussion on how our food choices fit with Catholic Social Teaching.

There are seven broad themes of Catholic Social Teaching. For each I believe my vegan choice is an appropriate response – and here is why…

There are so many more environmental issues related to the raising of animals for food for this world that can be fed on vegetable based diet

The Real discussion on how our food choices fit with Catholic Social Teaching should center on calorie count per person.

Consuming more than 1000 calories a day is enough to sustain life for most of us. Eating more even if its plant matter is a waste and gluttony for the exact same reasons that you listed.

The FDA suggests a 2000 calorie a day diet but we all know that the human body can survive on 1000 calories a day.

Like your pronouncement this is my opinion. Hopefully my point has been proven… Giving an opinion and stating that it is more in line with Catholic Social teaching for whatever the reason is still just an one persons opinion, nothing special.

 

[Marfran]

Vegans will have to pry the big juicy cheesburger from my cold dead hands.

QUOTE FROM 4elise: 4. Option for the Poor and Vulnerable
**A basic moral test is how our most vulnerable members are faring. **In a society marred by deepening divisions between rich and poor, our tradition recalls the story of the Last Judgment (Mt 25:31-46) and instructs us to put the needs of the poor and vulnerable first.
More people can be fed with the same resources making it possible for more of the poor and vulnerable to have their most basic need for food met. It takes 16 pounds of grain and soy to produce one pound of beef. It takes 12 calories of grain to produce one calorie of chicken. We eliminate the ‘middle’ cow/chicken – take the soy and grain directly to the people! An interesting article: guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/de…ristmas.famine

Juxtapose** Jon S’s **statement against 4elise’s and what do you see?

 

[Marfran]

Sean Boyle: The Real discussion on how our food choices fit with Catholic Social Teaching should center on calorie count per person.

4elise: 4. Option for the Poor and Vulnerable
A basic moral test is how our most vulnerable members are faring. In a society marred by deepening divisions between rich and poor, our tradition recalls the story of the Last Judgment (Mt 25:31-46) and instructs us to put the needs of the poor and vulnerable first.
More people can be fed with the same resources making it possible for more of the poor and vulnerable to have their most basic need for food met. It takes 16 pounds of grain and soy to produce one pound of beef. It takes 12 calories of grain to produce one calorie of chicken. We eliminate the ‘middle’ cow/chicken – take the soy and grain directly to the people! An interesting article: guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/de…ristmas.famine

Juxtapose **Sean Boyle’s **statement against 4elise’s. Anybody good in math out there?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Juxtapose **Sean Boyle’s **statement against 4elise’s. Anybody good in math out there?

I am. What would you like for me to explain to you? What is your question or point?

 

[Marfran]

I am. What would you like for me to explain to you? What is your question or point?

More calories are spent/consumed raising chickens/cows than in feeding the grains directly to the people!

 

[Sean_Boyle]

More calories are spent/consumed raising chickens/cows than in feeding the grains directly to the people!

The point of my post was to point out that people (including vegans) consume to more calories than is necessary to sustain life, regardless of what you eat.

Vegans must consume more calories to sustain the diet needed to simple survive. The “math” just swung back in my favor.

 

[4elise]

A Catholic with a well-formed conscience can choose to be vegan if they wish or they can chose to be an omnivore. There is no right or wrong to this statement to a faithful Catholic. The idea that veganism is better for any reason is only, an OPINION.

The idea that there are or could be 8 reasons why Catholic Social teaching points to veganism is again just someone’s OPINION, nothing more. Just because someone can rationalize an opinion somehow, doesn’t make the opinion more valid.

There is no good reason to preach or teach that veganism is living more closely to Catholic Socal teaching, at least from the Church’s perspective.

Those reasons are the points of Catholic Social Teaching - (in green) and below that is what seems to me (yes my opinion - only capable of my own) points that I believe we can consider as it relates to our food choice as Catholics - I don’t know if you actually went through the links, or just assume because I have come to a different OPINION than you - they are not valid, or points worthy of consideration… if that is the case I guess there is no point in wasting your time:shrug:

 

[4elise]

Honestly, I sincerely worry about those who choose to be vegan. Their health and/or the health of their decendants could possible be affected by not eating some meat I believe. So, if you are young and do not have children, but plan to. Think about just having a healthy balance, and choosing the right food to eat. My beef is a lot healthier than the beef most people get.

I really do thank you for your concern - honestly - I am sure the cows you raise are much healthier to consume than those which are raised in factory farming where the have to be given such high doses of medication to keep them healthy before they can be slaughtered - However people have lived for generations in China as vegans and do quite well - when their children come to the US often the change to a western diet has very deleterious effects. (just one article: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6284830.stm)

bbarrick - I am guessing that the reason you post on these type of discussions about the ethical food issues is because you feel you can defend your point - and maybe because you feel you need to - this (on my part) is not an attack on your way of life - I raise the issues because it has value to me as a Catholic - and I hoped this forum would be a place where we could discuss this.

 

[4elise]

The point of my post was to point out that people (including vegans) consume to more calories than is necessary to sustain life, regardless of what you eat.

Vegans must consume more calories to sustain the diet needed to simple survive. The “math” just swung back in my favor.

A calorie is only a measurement of food energy - if an ‘omni’ was eating a 2000 calorie diet and become a vegan - they continue to eat a 2000 calorie vegan diet made up of beans, nuts, veggies, etc… - if they increase now to 3000 calorie vegan diet - and don’t off set that with 1000 calories of exercise they will become an overweight vegan

 

[4elise]

Vegans will have to pry the big juicy cheesburger from my cold dead hands.

I like most vegans would have no reason to do so… but I you like I’d be happy to call the priest to offer the Annointing of the Sick if you keel over with that in your hand!

 

[Jon_S]

QUOTE FROM 4elise: 4. Option for the Poor and Vulnerable
**A basic moral test is how our most vulnerable members are faring. **In a society marred by deepening divisions between rich and poor, our tradition recalls the story of the Last Judgment (Mt 25:31-46) and instructs us to put the needs of the poor and vulnerable first.
More people can be fed with the same resources making it possible for more of the poor and vulnerable to have their most basic need for food met. It takes 16 pounds of grain and soy to produce one pound of beef. It takes 12 calories of grain to produce one calorie of chicken. We eliminate the ‘middle’ cow/chicken – take the soy and grain directly to the people! An interesting article: guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/de…ristmas.famine

Juxtapose** Jon S’s **statement against 4elise’s and what do you see?

Thank for the article. Are you saying that we should all eat grains and starve cows to death?

The problem of people starving would still exist even if we all became vegans tomorrow.

 

[fix]

I would like to have a serious discussion on Catholic Social Teaching and food choices.

In addition to the nutritional benefits, vegans may choose an animal-free diet for ethical, environmental AND spiritual reasons. (And make this choice even though their friends, some family, and society may think that they are nuts!)

As I learned about the issues related to factory farming, dairy and leather production I became convinced that a vegan diet and therefore my daily choices are consistent with my Catholic faith and our beautiful Catholic Social Teaching. Over the last few years I have moved to a vegan diet and now at 53 find it easy, delicious, and actually fun to be creative!

Discussions that I have had (and read on some forums) about this choice with other Catholics sometimes surprise me. I do not offer this information to be ‘holier than thou’ another thing vegans are often accused of, but to share where this fits into my understanding of Catholic Social Teaching.

Vegans have been accused about ‘caring more about animals than people – and that simply isn’t true. I believe our hearts are wide enough and that there is room to care not only about my own family, my community, people around the world and all of God’s creation. I am pro all life!

I’ve heard from Catholics who say that they obtain their sources of animal protein & dairy from sustainable resources, not factory farming. I congratulate them on their efforts. I believe that Catholic Social Teaching even calls us to consider the amount of resources used to raise one pound of animal protein v/s vegetable protein in a world where so many go hungry, and while sustainable may be a better life for the animals than factory farming, regardless of the way in which the animal is raised they still use a greater amount of resources.

I’d love to have a “not derailed” discussion with this community.

• Discussions get de-railed as people say ‘you should care more about abortion.’ Simply - it is possible to care about BOTH and make all my choices reflect my beliefs. These issues are not mutually exclusive.
• Discussions get de-railed about the nature of an animal’s soul – I understand the Church’s teaching about an animal’s non-immortal soul.
• Discussions sometimes even get de-railed with a silly challenge saying ‘what about a vegetable’s life or pain’ – … really?
• I had one person actually say if everyone became vegan than cows would become extinct! Are there really people who think that would happen? Or are concerned about this and yet eat beef?
• Discussions often get de-railed as people pick apart a choice of words ‘inhumane treatment of animals’ responded to with – “well animals are not human” – everyone understands what someone means when they say this and only use this as another way to get off track –
• Discussions get de-railed about the human body, teeth, etc. being made by God to eat animals. Do we really need to discuss this? There are many things about the human body made by God that we have chosen to use in different ways – do we only walk because we have two legs and feet? Or do we ride bikes, drive cars, ride in busses and trains?
• Some de-rail discussions by vilifying ‘animal rights’ groups – for example, if you agree with the position on food choice of PETA then you must also agree with all things which have come to be associated with them - and the steps they take to communicate their beliefs – just not true.
• One big issue that seems to be a division when people try to discuss this - is people feeling judged – and sometimes I just get tired of trying to explain the ‘why’ of my vegan choice so it would be great if we could ALL avoid judging each other –
• And for clarification – I am writing this as an American. For my work I have occasion to travel to mission countries in Africa and Latin America – when I am a guest there and someone offers me food that has been prepared for me, regardless if it is fish, or chicken or goat - I graciously accept
• I am speaking of this as an American Catholic who does not raise my own animals for food, nor do I hunt, I shop at grocery stores, have a small vegetable garden and prepare the majority of the food for my family.

If I am reading what you are saying correctly I would say there is nothing in the faith that says we must be vegans or that their is greater merit in that. The problem of resources or management of farms certainly can have a moral component, but most of the issues you raise seem more about a particular ideology than anything faith related.

 

[4elise]

Thank for the article. Are you saying that we should all eat grains and starve cows to death?

The problem of people starving would still exist even if we all became vegans tomorrow.

Oh my goodness Jon - of course this will not solve all the problems of the world and starving people - but as people of faith, what I hope we consider is how our faith forms our decisions -

If we said what does it matter if I help one person - so many others are suffering, then we would do nothing - ever. I believe as people of faith we are called to make choices - and some of these choices may be radical - but they reflect our faith. As Catholics we are given such a beautiful guide in Catholic Social Teaching and I think it is one of the best kept secrets of the Catholic Church - - I propose we use this to help us form our conscious as it relates to our food choices.

 

[4elise]

If I am reading what you are saying correctly I would say there is nothing in the faith that says we must be vegans or that their is greater merit in that. The problem of resources or management of farms certainly can have a moral component, but most of the issues you raise seem more about a particular ideology than anything faith related.

That is why - in the second post - I tried to go through the points of Catholic Social Teaching as they relate TODAY - IN THE WESTERN WORLD - to food choices - - this has helped me to see how this resonates with my faith

 

[Jon_S]

Oh my goodness Jon - of course this will not solve all the problems of the world and starving people - but as people of faith, what I hope we consider is how our faith forms our decisions -

I agree on the Catholic social teaching, but the point of the excerpt from the article you posted was that grains used to create a pound of beef could be sent to starving people. I just don’t think that would solve anything at all.; at least not in a permanent and sustainable way.

 

[bbarrick8383]

The Real discussion on how our food choices fit with Catholic Social Teaching should center on calorie count per person.

Consuming more than 1000 calories a day is enough to sustain life for most of us. Eating more even if its plant matter is a waste and gluttony for the exact same reasons that you listed.

The FDA suggests a 2000 calorie a day diet but we all know that the human body can survive on 1000 calories a day.

Like your pronouncement this is my opinion. Hopefully my point has been proven… Giving an opinion and stating that it is more in line with Catholic Social teaching for whatever the reason is still just an one persons opinion, nothing special.

I’m 6’3" and 240 lbs. a little bit over on my body index, but I keep it under 30. I think 25 is average and 20 to 25 is healthy for me. I stay pretty active, and I do not see 1000 calories keeping me my size. I like to stay my size because I find its easier at 230/240 to sling bales of hay, tackle calves, move 55 gal. barrels that weigh 400 to 600 lbs. around.

I have three cousins, two at 6’5" and one 6’7" they are all over 250 lbs. They eat 1000 calories for a snack. Growing up their mother had to buy at least three gallons of milk a week.

 

[4elise]

I agree on the Catholic social teaching, but the point of the excerpt from the article you posted was that grains used to create a pound of beef could be sent to starving people. I just don’t think that would solve anything at all.; at least not in a permanent and sustainable way.

I’m sorry if it seems that I am advocating something so elemental as sending the grain that is used to raise cattle to feed the hungry - it may be that simple - but I think it is about the sustainable use of resources, exactly what you note would be preferable -

This would not be a one time - don’t raise this cow / send the grain to a poor person - swap idea - but rather if more (dare I hope all) people were to switch to a plant based diet the sustainable resources go further right?

 

[4elise]

I’m 6’3" and 240 lbs. a little bit over on my body index, but I keep it under 30. I think 25 is average and 20 to 25 is healthy for me. I stay pretty active, and I do not see 1000 calories keeping me my size. I like to stay my size because I find its easier at 230/240 to sling bales of hay, tackle calves, move 55 gal. barrels that weigh 400 to 600 lbs. around.

I have three cousins, two at 6’5" and one 6’7" they are all over 250 lbs. They eat 1000 calories for a snack. Growing up their mother had to buy at least three gallons of milk a week.

YIKES - I just must not be making myself clear - what ever you (or your healthy cousins) current calorie intake is now - you (or even they) can take in the same amount of calories on a plant based diet - you don’t need more calories just because it is a bag of almonds /vs a burger - a calorie is a calorie is a calorie

 

[4elise]

QUOTE from 4elise:*As I learned about the issues related to factory farming, dairy and leather production I became convinced that a vegan diet and therefore my daily choices are consistent with my Catholic faith and our beautiful Catholic Social Teaching. Over the last few years I have moved to a vegan diet and now at 53 find it easy, delicious, and actually fun to be creative! *

WE SHOULD START A GROUP!!! Healthy Catholic Vegans

I find it interesting that people are so afraid of vegans, I went into a local bagel shop and asked if the bagels were vegan, and/or what flavors were vegan. This bagel shop has a lot of *vegetarian *items on the menu–in fact has mostly *vegetarian *items–very few items with meat.
…

Knowledge is the key to understanding–it opens a lot of doors.
Carry on** 4elise**!

I’m all for a GROUP - you start it and I’ll join!

I know that for many this topic may feel threatening - and I really just want to discuss in light of faith here - some vegans can be really nasty with people who don’t agree and I just never think that is helpful either. A civil discourse on choice and faith can only be good for all of us!