Pro-choice & catholic

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maize

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someone asked me if you could be pro-choice and catholic, i said no. at least not a faithful catholic.

heres some follow up comments that i need help with.
Yes. and you can be a faithful catholic.
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Just becase you don’t want to force your views onto others don’t make you a bad catholic.
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But if you didn’t have an abortion, are you guilty of a mortal sin because you want abortion to remain legal?
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probably easy ones to squash, doctrinal sources would help.

thanks.
 
Suppose the law allowed abortion up to the age of 1 year. Newborns could legally be killed up to age 1. Could one then be pro-choice and Catholic?

I suppose one could take the position that it is a private decision between a newborn’s parents and their doctor, and the state should not get involved. But the Church opposes killing of the innocent at any age, so it would be hard to claim to be in accord with the Church.

The thing is, most people do oppose abortion at some point. Some would prohibit it after 3 months of gestational life, others after 6 months, or 7 months or 9 months. Roe and Doe allow it through the first nine months of life. The "choice’ could be extended, to 3 months post-birth, or six months or 1 year, or age 6. I hope that every individual would find some limit to the abortion liberty of which they could approve.

But when one does set a limit before which one can be killed, then you have to acknowledge the no one has an inherent right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,” but merely a grant of life given by the State.
 
“Just becase you don’t want to force your views onto others don’t make you a bad catholic”

Yeah, that sounds about right. Someone else did that about 2000 years ago. His name was Pontius Pilate…he believed Jesus was innocent but he didn’t want to force his view on the crowd–think about it–he had the power to stop the crucifixtion—but instead caved into the crowds in order to please them.

“I’m personally opposed to Jesus being guilty but who am I to force my views on others?”
 
Wouldn’t this be going against the church’s view and be sinning? The pro-life movement is one of the largest stances of the church; surely one can’t rightly oppose the church regarding life. Right?
 
The term “Pro-choice Catholic” is an oxymoron I hear far too often. Maize, the “forcing your views on others” argument is invalid; as Catholics we are morally obligated to prevent the occurrences of abortion. This is true regardless of what the parents believe.
 
Feste_1242 said:
The term “Pro-choice Catholic” is an oxymoron I hear far too often. Maize, the “forcing your views on others” argument is invalid; as Catholics we are morally obligated to prevent the occurrences of abortion. This is true regardless of what the parents believe.
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What is it considered as if a Catholic differs from the church’s teachings and thinks abortion is okay? That would be sin. Right?
 
stringbeanduck said:
What is it considered as if a Catholic differs from the church’s teachings and thinks abortion is okay? That would be sin. Right?
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There are two ways to handle a disagreement with the Church; one sinful, the other not. If a Catholic were to promote abortion, or anything against Church teaching, that would be sinful. To misrepresent the Church is a grave offense. Take for example the so called “Pro-life Catholic” politicians, like Pelosi. They have been excommunicated (latae sententiae) as a result of the scandal they have caused. There is a relevant paragraph in the Catechism:
2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.
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The other way to handle it would be to say something like, “I disagree with the Church; that is, I don't understand why they teach this certain thing, but I accept that it must be true, so I'm looking into it." That would not be a sin.
 
I am a very very pro-life Catholic. However, just for the sake of discussion…

What if the question was phrased slightly differently?

If one were to say “I am Catholic and pro-choice. I just happen to think that the ‘choice’ to kill your baby is wrong”.

In other words, if one is opposed to “the state” taking away a woman’s freedom to choose, but at the same time, considers the choice to kill one’s child to be absolutely 100% wrong…

Is this also a wrong position? And if so, how to explain what is wrong with it?
 
sandraladeda said:
I am a very very pro-life Catholic. However, just for the sake of discussion…

What if the question was phrased slightly differently?

If one were to say “I am Catholic and pro-choice. I just happen to think that the ‘choice’ to kill your baby is wrong”.

In other words, if one is opposed to “the state” taking away a woman’s freedom to choose, but at the same time, considers the choice to kill one’s child to be absolutely 100% wrong…

Is this also a wrong position? And if so, how to explain what is wrong with it?
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One way to look at it is that the “freedom” to act in an evil way is not only not real freedom, but in civilized societies we limit the way people can act.

We are not “free” to commit arson. We are not “free” to rob banks. We should not be “free” to kill the unborn humans.
 
Just for the sake of argument, we ARE free to commit adultery, we ARE free to gossip, we ARE free to miss church on Sunday…etc.
 
sandraladeda said:
If one were to say “I am Catholic and pro-choice. I just happen to think that the ‘choice’ to kill your baby is wrong”.
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“I believe people should be free to murder other people, I just happen to think murder is wrong”

There’s no difference between the above statement and the one you posted. Murder cannot be allowed in a civilized society.
 
No, I do not think one can be for legalized abortion and be Catholic. There are certain absolutes in Catholicism that are distinctive from any other faith and one of them is the position of abortion.

The arguments for legal abortion rights focus on a premise of the unborn child is not a ‘person’ deserving human or civil rights before natural birth. The old arguments of not being alive or uniquely human is scientifically proven false so now it is a blob of cells or parasite to the mother like a wart, cancer, or a stuffed up nose to be discarded in the most expedient and cost effective way.
Just becase you don’t want to force your views onto others don’t make you a bad catholic.
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A Catholic person who steals because they are hungry (when not penniless) is a thief just as the Agnostic, Jew or non-religious person is. Were they a politician I would not expect any of them to vote in favor of making stealing legal but if the others did vote for legalized theft I would expect the Catholic at least to still be against stealing and vote accordingly. The same is with abortion and the human life it ends unjustly; not just because my faith tells me this but science, biology and our founding ideology and civil law in America tells me this.

This is not forcing anything on anyone but expressing not only my Constitutional rights but that of my conviction. To do other wise would be intellectually dishonest and/or worse for any practicing Catholic.
But if you didn’t have an abortion, are you guilty of a mortal sin because you want abortion to remain legal?
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A Catholic should not publicly advocate, by secret vote or voice state protected right to conduct abortions. We all sin, yes; but we shouldn’t be promoting our sin for others to do as well. The next argument point(s) to keep it lagal will be what legal punishments are to be imposed, and what about rape/incest… It is a worthy topic but a different one.

Either abortion kills a human being that deserves rights or it doesn’t.

Pro-life could never now describe as a distinct “Christian” position but it should be able to define Catholics as closely as the Eucharist does. The religious mix that founded America have a lot to do with it imo. There are many pro-abortion/‘choice’ Christian groups that see no contradiction in abortion and the Christian ethic as Catholics do. The many life issues like eugenics, invitro, euthanasia…
Just for the sake of argument, we ARE free to commit adultery, we ARE free to gossip, we ARE free to miss church on Sunday…etc.
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Some things -just are.
 
Just becase you don’t want to force your views onto others don’t make you a bad catholic
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Ask this person if they are pro-choice on slavery… Was it wrong for the abolisists to attempt to force their views on personhood on plantation owners?

Or how about concentration camp guards. They didn’t believe Jews were fully human, would it be a sign of good Catholicism to not attempt to convince the guards otherwise?
 
sandraladeda said:
Just for the sake of argument, we ARE free to commit adultery, we ARE free to gossip, we ARE free to miss church on Sunday…etc.
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But those are not all equivalent in terms of harmful effects on society and innocent persons. The right to life is foundational.

We are not free to intentionally kill any innocent person, well except the unborn.

None of the examples you mention include killing. One can recover from all you cited. There is no recovery from homicide.

Also, in a moral sense we are not free to act immorally. That is license, not true freedom. The state cannot ban every vice but should ban offenses against life.
 
fix said:
But those are not all equivalent in terms of harmful effects on society and innocent persons. The right to life is foundational.

We are not free to intentionally kill any innocent person, well except the unborn.

None of the examples you mention include killing. One can recover from all you cited. There is no recovery from homicide.

Also, in a moral sense we are not free to act immorally. That is license, not true freedom. The state cannot ban every vice but should ban offenses against life.
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Ah, good answer, thanks!

…I get into a lot of debates, CAF is a great place to find the words to speak truth effectively in these situations…👍
 
Depends on your definition of Catholic or catholic.

If you are defining it as someone that was baptized in the RCC or any of the rites in communion with Rome then yes you can be both. Many claim the name but not the teachings under this definition. This is the easy way to claim a religion without practicing one.

If you are defining a Catholic as someone that was baptized AND follows the teachings of the CATHOLIC CHURCH then NO you can not be both. Being Catholic and following the teaching of the Church is not an easy thing.
 
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