Pro-choice Catholics

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That said, I never thought I was “pro-choice” until I came to this forum, but if it makes me pro-choice because of my understanding of why those who would want an abortion due to being raped, or who are in danger of losing their lives from the changes a pregnancy brings on, then so be it.
There’s an old slogan for the pro-life movement that goes:

Pro-choice?
That’s a lie!
The baby doesn’t choose to die!

In light of our beautiful Church’s teachings I can tackle both your arguments in a few short sentences.

1.) Rape. Two wrongs don’t make a right. The baby doesn’t deserve to be killed because he/she was the outcome of an evil act. Remember, all life is good and precious and given to us by God. If the mother is not able to care for the baby, adoption is a road she may take.

2.) Mother’s life is in danger. In this case, all must be done to save both the mother and the baby’s life. Catholic doctors look at the mother and baby as two separate human lives (and rightfully so) therefore, they take the correct measures to ensure the safety of them both. If the baby dies as a result of trying to save both it’s life and the life of it’s mother, that does not qualify as an abortion.
 
As the “pills” for abortion become smaller and safer, I think we will see and hear less and less demands from the pro-Life movement.

I have always wanted to see Catholics put their money into homes for all of these unwed mothers out there. If pregnant women had a place to go to have their babies safely and with good medical coverage, then I firmly believe we would see fewer abortions.

Adoption is great, but without proper medical care, (including pre-natal) many of these children are less than healthy, treated like second class citizens and are not adopted.
 
As the “pills” for abortion become smaller and safer, I think we will see and hear less and less demands from the pro-Life movement.

I have always wanted to see Catholics put their money into homes for all of these unwed mothers out there. If pregnant women had a place to go to have their babies safely and with good medical coverage, then I firmly believe we would see fewer abortions.

Adoption is great, but without proper medical care, (including pre-natal) many of these children are less than healthy, treated like second class citizens and are not adopted.
The Catholic Church provides more assistance for unwed mothers than all other private organizations combined. The network of CPCs across the country also provides help for unwed mothers. Our CPC , for example,offered parenitng classes, financial assistance and scholarships for women who decided to keep their child.

Can you tell us what services NARL., Planned Parenthood ,et al provide women who “choose” to not kill their child?
 
Perhaps it means keeping abortion safe and legal but rare.
Why don’t you tell us how you plan to keep it “safe” for the baby? 🤷

And here for a while I thought your “the word abortion doesn’t appear in the Bible” excuse really pushed the bounds of desperation. Congratulations on outdoing yourself.
 
Dear friend, sorry I give you a lot to chew on:
What is a woman’s right of privacy to choose? Do you believe that a scared, pregnant woman who doesn’t find the emotional and financial support that she needs is in a cool, responsible state of mind to enjoy her private right to kill her baby?
Are there grey areas in either supporting or opposing legal child killing? Please use simple, direct words that my poor french brain can understand (the language barrier doesn’t help me to understand all the long political statements).

What do you think that women need abortion for? What does it solve? How does it improve life?

Do you know how a girl feels when the guy who got her pregnant tells her at best: “you are on your own now”? but most likely: “how could you let this happen, you’re in charge of birth control. (slapping) I want you to get rid of that”.

Do you think that “abortion rights” have helped women? Do you think that we mothers are happy to terminate our babies lives? Do you think that a pregnant woman is not a mother in both body and mind? Why would anybody wish for her to be responsible for destroying the life growing within her and bear that guilt for the rest of her life?

Do you think that we have very much progressed as a society when our boyfriends are giving up on us because “my body, my choice” translates into: “I don’t have to have any responsibility in this pregnancy”?

Isn’t it our duty as Christians to care for the poor and the homeless by providing support to our sisters in need? For example keeping a spare room available in case God puts on our way a pregnant woman in need and being opened to adoption?
Hello again Beafedor. I apologize for the delay but I had some other things tonight and you indeed gave me much to chew on. 🙂 After rereading your post I am not so certain language is the barrier you deem it to be. You do quite well. But I will try to be as concise as I can. Yet if I am too lengthy in my words or get too political I trust you will understand and forgive me. This is an issue to me trancending beyond faith and religion in the democracy of plural beliefs in which I live. But here goes. 🙂

In the US women have the right to make reproductive decisions without government interference within the first trimester. To do otherwise could potentially open the floodgates to government interference in all sorts of private matters in which government has no business in the privacy of a bedroom. While there may be further limits to interference, this does not mean it is abortion on demand beyond. If there were no limits allowed, I for instance would have been unable to vote in support of parental notification in my state to limit abortion on demand for younger females. I of course did so however only after understanding that should a young female believe she would face abuse by a parent if she were to tell the parent of her pregnancy, that in such a case she had an out decided by a court. Congress would not have passed a partial birth abortion ban if no limits were allowed.

Do I believe a scared pregnant woman is of cool state of mind? Need for abortion? What does it solve? Has it helped women? Improved their lives? I do not walk in their shoes to know for all women.

Do I think mothers are happy to terminate? No quite the contrary. I believe women agonize deeply over their decisions. They consult their doctors. Many I believe pray and pray and pray. As a man I have contemplated and prayed a great deal simply to arrive at my decision in regards to postions to take. So I can imagine the wrestling a woman must go thru in her own conscience, the contemplation, the prayer, all must surely go far beyond mine.

Regarding boyfriends I believe they need to step up to the plate and be men. My heart breaks for women whose boyfreinds do as you say. True men will stand by their women. Join them in prayer and in support of whatever decision it is the woman ultimately makes.

Finally I think it’s great if one is able to open a room if a woman feels she can choose to carry to term for adoption, what a blessing! And I most certainly with every fiber of my being, believe not only Christians but people of good will everywhere, should support programs to aid the poor. The homeless. The sick. It is frankly a big problem I see in society today. Too many IMHO cry for resources to come only from the individual and the Church. And when government offers a role to pick up the slack they cry foul. Yet it is some of these programs which could help to make abortion rarer. Government aid for the mother after birth whether it be in food, clothing, shelter, medical care, child care, all are needed. Too many it is my belief want to cut social programs while giving tax breaks to the weathiest among us. To those far wealthier than the most of us. They cry deficits but seem to want to balance the budget on the backs of those most in need. And my heart cries.

This is not an issue that is going to be decided on an internet forum though. As I have previously said it always seems to end in circular debate. And may not be solved till heaven and earth pass and all is fulfilled. But I have tried to explain what I believe. It is not a black and white, cut and dried simple issue to me so again I apologize if it was too lengthy or poltical. God bless you my friend. I truly pray with all my heart for His peace to always, always be with you. :hug1:

Your friend,
CMatt
 
Wow look around and you’ll see in the richest nation on earth we sadly have too many born who are those things.
So I get it that your implication is that it is better to NOT be born than to have life and suffer from poverty or sickness?? This is the most anti-life statement I think I’ve ever read.
 
I would be going against my informed conscience if I were to do so. An erroneous conscience yes you would say but it is my conscience with which to make moral decisions freely with respect to religious matters. I am here to discuss our various faiths and beliefs. Hopefully in a cordial, charitable, respectful and understanding manner where we can each perhaps learn a little more about others. As we strive to live together in a world of many faiths and beliefs and with some of even questioning, doubting or non belief. It’s a big world.
**And here is the very essence of moral relativism **which says if it is ”my truth” then it is okay to believe. Objective truth is outright denied and my subjective consciousness reigns over conformity to any godly authority such as a church or magisterium.
 
As the “pills” for abortion become smaller and safer, I think we will see and hear less and less demands from the pro-Life movement.

I have always wanted to see Catholics put their money into homes for all of these unwed mothers out there. If pregnant women had a place to go to have their babies safely and with good medical coverage, then I firmly believe we would see fewer abortions.

Adoption is great, but without proper medical care, (including pre-natal) many of these children are less than healthy, treated like second class citizens and are not adopted.
No so…Catholics believe in that life is sacred from the instant of conception until natural death. Of course if the ‘little’ pill lets you hide the abortion of course there will be less outcry from pro-lifers…but you can’t hide it from God.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
 
Originally Posted by CMatt25
I would be going against my informed conscience if I were to do so. An erroneous conscience yes you would say but it is my conscience with which to make moral decisions freely with respect to religious matters. I am here to discuss our various faiths and beliefs. Hopefully in a cordial, charitable, respectful and understanding manner where we can each perhaps learn a little more about others. As we strive to live together in a world of many faiths and beliefs and with some of even questioning, doubting or non belief. It’s a big world.
And here is the very essence of moral relativism which says if it is ”my truth” then it is okay to believe. Objective truth is outright denied and my subjective consciousness reigns over conformity to any godly authority such as a church or magisterium.

Those who pray, have hope
Those who pray little, are in great danger
Those who do not pray, are lost.
~ St. Padre Pio ~

Pray for America
Pray for the World!

Bangin’ good answer. I’d like to add something. A conscience can be well formed only when it is in concert with the teachings of the Church. If it is not…it is not well formed. Conscience never trumps doctrine, never.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
 
Hello again Beafedor. I apologize for the delay but I had some other things tonight and you indeed gave me much to chew on. 🙂 After rereading your post I am not so certain language is the barrier you deem it to be. You do quite well. But I will try to be as concise as I can. Yet if I am too lengthy in my words or get too political I trust you will understand and forgive me. This is an issue to me trancending beyond faith and religion in the democracy of plural beliefs in which I live. But here goes. 🙂

In the US women have the right to make** reproductive decisions** without government interference within the first trimester. To do otherwise could potentially open the floodgates to government interference in all sorts of private matters in which government has no business in the privacy of a bedroom. While there may be further limits to interference, this does not mean it is abortion on demand beyond. If there were no limits allowed, I for instance would have been unable to vote in support of parental notification in my state to limit abortion on demand for younger females. I of course did so however only after understanding that should a young female believe she would face abuse by a parent if she were to tell the parent of her pregnancy, that in such a case she had an out decided by a court. Congress would not have passed a partial birth abortion ban if no limits were allowed.

Do I believe a scared pregnant woman is of cool state of mind? Need for abortion? What does it solve? Has it helped women? Improved their lives? I do not walk in their shoes to know for all women.

Do I think mothers are happy to** terminate**? No quite the contrary. I believe women agonize deeply over their decisions. They consult their doctors. Many I believe pray and pray and pray. As a man I have contemplated and prayed a great deal simply to arrive at my decision in regards to postions to take. So I can imagine the wrestling a woman must go thru in her own conscience, the contemplation, the prayer, all must surely go far beyond mine.

Regarding boyfriends I believe they need to step up to the plate and be men. My heart breaks for women whose boyfreinds do as you say. True men will stand by their women. Join them in prayer and in support of whatever decision it is the woman ultimately makes.

Finally I think it’s great if one is able to open a room if a woman feels she can choose to carry to term for adoption, what a blessing! And I most certainly with every fiber of my being, believe not only Christians but people of good will everywhere, should support programs to aid the poor. The homeless. The sick. It is frankly a big problem I see in society today. Too many IMHO cry for resources to come only from the individual and the Church. And when government offers a role to pick up the slack they cry foul. Yet it is some of these programs which could help to make abortion rarer. Government aid for the mother after birth whether it be in food, clothing, shelter, medical care, child care, all are needed. Too many it is my belief want to cut social programs while giving tax breaks to the weathiest among us. To those far wealthier than the most of us. They cry deficits but seem to want to balance the budget on the backs of those most in need. And my heart cries.

This is not an issue that is going to be decided on an internet forum though. As I have previously said it always seems to end in circular debate. And may not be solved till heaven and earth pass and all is fulfilled. But I have tried to explain what I believe. It is not a black and white, cut and dried simple issue to me so again I apologize if it was too lengthy or poltical. God bless you my friend. I truly pray with all my heart for His peace to always, always be with you. :hug1:

Your friend,
CMatt
This is the standard recital of pro-abortion talking points.

I have highlighted the standard pro-abortion euphanisms…What is interesting in the not once is the child mentioned. We see a lot about “rights” and the usual hints that if we just adopted the social program of the democrat party abortions would not be needed and, of course , the dire warnings about govt and religious opression of peoples “rights” but not ONE word about the child that is being killed.
 
And here is the very essence of moral relativism which says if it is ”my truth” then it is okay to believe. Objective truth is outright denied and my subjective consciousness reigns over conformity to any godly authority such as a church or magisterium.

Those who pray, have hope
Those who pray little, are in great danger
Those who do not pray, are lost.
~ St. Padre Pio ~

Pray for America
Pray for the World!

Bangin’ good answer. I’d like to add something. A conscience can be well formed only when it is in concert with the teachings of the Church. If it is not…it is not well formed. Conscience never trumps doctrine, never.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike
When has no faith they tend to form their moral views based on whims of the current culture. Claiming to be driven by conscience is nothing more than admitting that you have no moral compass other than self.
 
Hello again Beafedor. I apologize for the delay but I had some other things tonight and you indeed gave me much to chew on. 🙂 After rereading your post I am not so certain language is the barrier you deem it to be. You do quite well. But I will try to be as concise as I can. Yet if I am too lengthy in my words or get too political I trust you will understand and forgive me. This is an issue to me trancending beyond faith and religion in the democracy of plural beliefs in which I live. But here goes. 🙂

In the US women have the right to make reproductive decisions without government interference within the first trimester. To do otherwise could potentially open the floodgates to government interference in all sorts of private matters in which government has no business in the privacy of a bedroom. While there may be further limits to interference, this does not mean it is abortion on demand beyond. If there were no limits allowed, I for instance would have been unable to vote in support of parental notification in my state to limit abortion on demand for younger females. I of course did so however only after understanding that should a young female believe she would face abuse by a parent if she were to tell the parent of her pregnancy, that in such a case she had an out decided by a court. Congress would not have passed a partial birth abortion ban if no limits were allowed.

Do I believe a scared pregnant woman is of cool state of mind? Need for abortion? What does it solve? Has it helped women? Improved their lives? I do not walk in their shoes to know for all women.

Do I think mothers are happy to terminate? No quite the contrary. I believe women agonize deeply over their decisions. They consult their doctors. Many I believe pray and pray and pray. As a man I have contemplated and prayed a great deal simply to arrive at my decision in regards to postions to take. So I can imagine the wrestling a woman must go thru in her own conscience, the contemplation, the prayer, all must surely go far beyond mine.

Regarding boyfriends I believe they need to step up to the plate and be men. My heart breaks for women whose boyfreinds do as you say. True men will stand by their women. Join them in prayer and in support of whatever decision it is the woman ultimately makes.

Finally I think it’s great if one is able to open a room if a woman feels she can choose to carry to term for adoption, what a blessing! And I most certainly with every fiber of my being, believe not only Christians but people of good will everywhere, should support programs to aid the poor. The homeless. The sick. It is frankly a big problem I see in society today. Too many IMHO cry for resources to come only from the individual and the Church. And when government offers a role to pick up the slack they cry foul. Yet it is some of these programs which could help to make abortion rarer. Government aid for the mother after birth whether it be in food, clothing, shelter, medical care, child care, all are needed. Too many it is my belief want to cut social programs while giving tax breaks to the weathiest among us. To those far wealthier than the most of us. They cry deficits but seem to want to balance the budget on the backs of those most in need. And my heart cries.

**This is not an issue that is going to be decided on an internet forum though. As I have previously said it always seems to end in circular debate. And may not be solved till heaven and earth pass and all is fulfilled. ** But I have tried to explain what I believe. It is not a black and white, cut and dried simple issue to me so again I apologize if it was too lengthy or poltical. God bless you my friend. I truly pray with all my heart for His peace to always, always be with you. :hug1:

Your friend,
CMatt
**For Catholics who are faithful to the consistent teachings of the Church, It has already been decided; there is and can be no debate. For other Catholics, as titled in this thread, they are in grave dissent. **
 
So I get it that your implication is that it is better to NOT be born than to have life and suffer from poverty or sickness?? This is the most anti-life statement I think I’ve ever read.
Then you get my implication wrong. I was asked how one can be poor and homeless etc if not born. Obviously they can not. I was merely saying to look around and see how they can be after being born. I made just a statement of fact. Nowhere did I say I personally believe your implication above. Please don’t twist my words. Thanks.
 
Why? Common ground I think is impossible, because we are talking of human rights of an unborn. The right to life must recognized for all of them, not some.
Ok then if you begin with the premise of “impossible” I guess it is. Roe can be overturned and the battle can begin anew in all 50 states and some will keep abortion legal and some won’t and the debate will continue forever long after either of us remain on earth. All the while we could have been using some of this energy to further other causes.
 
Why don’t you tell us how you plan to keep it “safe” for the baby? 🤷

And here for a while I thought your “the word abortion doesn’t appear in the Bible” excuse really pushed the bounds of desperation. Congratulations on outdoing yourself.
When we can compromise and work on common ground toward rarer abortions, then embryos and fetuses will be safer.
 
Hello Ishii, I justify my support by Christ speaking of the poor, the homeless, the hungry and the sick. Whereas the word abortion is no where to be found in Scripture. One of my favorite Biblical verses among many is Matt 25:36 (GNT) where our Lord commanded for righteousness the taking care of the sick for instance. He never said government could not fill a role to help pick up any slack. He said render to Caesar what is Caesars. I hope that helps clear up for you how this is not blatantly contradictory to my values and faith.
So in other words you think its ok to impose your religious values on others - have govt. implement them, etc. because you believe them to be true? And that’s not a theocracy in your book? You always say in response to pro-life voters, “we live in a pluralistic democracy and we can’t impose our religion on others because we don’t live in a theocracy” etc. Yet you’re imposing your religious values aren’t you? Just because you believe Jesus spoke of them in the bible doesn’t make them non religious values does it? A lot of people believe the bible condemns homosexuality. Do you agree with laws restricting gay marriage,etc? If not, on what basis? Please explain.

Ishii
 
**And here is the very essence of moral relativism **which says if it is ”my truth” then it is okay to believe. Objective truth is outright denied and my subjective consciousness reigns over conformity to any godly authority such as a church or magisterium.
No Tigg (edit: and Mike and anyone else who may have brought this up that I havent seen yet. I’m taking a post at a time. ) it is not the very essence. When you can prove to me without faith that your church or magesterium absolutely has the 100% certain truth, then we can talk about moral relativism. I mean prove without first placing faith in a Creator, then in the NT, then faith in what the Church interprets Herself to be. In how She interprets the NT and traces things. In ECFs and so forth. Moral relativism in its truest sense would be when one denies a one truth. And nowhere did I deny anything of the such. I am just realistic enough and honest enough with myself to understand none of us know with absolute 100%certainty what we may believe the one truth to be except by faith. So if “moral relativism” is supposed to somehow making me feel bad or lesser of a person, it doesn’t. We walk by faith not by sight. God bless you along your walk and peace.
 
**For Catholics who are faithful to the consistent teachings of the Church, It has already been decided; there is and can be no debate. For other Catholics, as titled in this thread, they are in grave dissent. **
So ok. If that’s teaching then it’s teaching. I could have read that btw without huge bold letters in red.
 
It is not a difficult concept to grasp it all. Catholics trying to rationalize putting their politics ahead of their faith would much rather posture themselves as supporting the rule of law rather than admit the obvious-they have rejected Church teaching on abortion and believe a woman should have the right to kill her child.
From the Catechism:
“2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way: Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.”

Just sayin’
 
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