Pro-choice Catholics

[catharina]

Anyone want to start a thread on ‘heresy’. I’m game. Otherwise I think we do a disservice to others on this thread by getting off subject.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

This is not a game - although you seem to think so.
Yes, the thread was hijacked by this off-subject thing.

Enough!

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Of course this isn’t the Inquisition. But you are thinking like an Inquisitor. Condemning the heretic while you really mean to condemn the heresy.

Think of it this way, Mike. Look at these 2 sentences, with very different meanings:

A. The Catholic Church is at war with poverty.

vs

B. The Catholic Church is at war with the poor.

Well, who is in poverty except the poor? The use of the noun “poor” only describes someone in poverty.

However, one cannot use them interchangeably, otherwise one gets a nonsensical statement like statement “B”.

Your example is an inappropriate use of context. This is my last post to you on heresy unless you will read and comment on my expanation…CCC 2089 and the ‘noun’ heresy.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[PRmerger]

The NAMING of individual heretics comes from Rome -
not from anyone in Iowa.

<spitting out my milk in laughter!>

 

[Iowa_Mike]

This is not a game - although you seem to think so.
Yes, the thread was hijacked by this off-subject thing.

Enough!

I agree!

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[catharina]

This is my final post to you on the subject of heresy…are you going to comment on CCC 2089 or are you going to posture?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

Here’s my comment on CCC 2089.

Your posts are irrelvant to CCC 2089 and contrary to accepted Catholic teachings.

Get back to me about your favorite chosen heretics if you become Pope.
Until/unless that happens, I’m not interested in your justifications or “ideas.”

 

[Iowa_Mike]

The Apostle writes:

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive commendation from God.

Parts of the human psyche are unconscious, and we can’t even know ourselves, much less the heart of another. We can think that we are right before God,but He may see it differently.

Because we cannot know all the things that are hidden in darkness, we cannot judge the persons only their actions. For all we know, he made a good contrition, and left what appears to us as heretical, or at the very least hypocritical, behind.

The roots of it are in the Reformation. But yes, more recently it has become a mandated practice, especially for American Catholics.

Yes, it is fortunate that the Church defines heresy in the CCC. In that same document (link already posted above) the CCC explains why we cannot use this term with others.

No, thanks. I am investing my studies right now in those who were obedient to the Teachings of the Church.

One of my current subjects is Joan of Arc, who suffered at the hands of people like yourself, who felt they were qualified to judge the state of her soul.

Now I’m a pursecutor of Joan of Arc HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Please give me the citation in the CCC that explains why we cannot use the term…

This is my last post to you on the subject of heresy, if your posts are not on subject I’ll ignore them. It really doesn’t matter much becausae you never provide specific citations to support your views anyway.

I think it a good idea for you to get back to your studies.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[catharina]

This is my final post to you on the subject of heresy…are you going to comment on CCC 2089 or are you going to posture?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

Promises, promises …
yet you posted to me AGAIN after this.

Good bye, mike.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Promises, promises …
yet you posted to me AGAIN after this.

Good bye, mike.

God by Catharina…I’d like you views CCC 2089. Would you like to PM on the subject?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Here’s my comment on CCC 2089.

Your posts are irrelvant to CCC 2089 and contrary to accepted Catholic teachings.

Get back to me about your favorite chosen heretics if you become Pope.
Until/unless that happens, I’m not interested in your justifications or “ideas.”

That is no answer at all…I’ll send you a PM.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[PRmerger]

Please give me the citation in the CCC that explains why we cannot use the term…

Because the Catechism itself…

NEVER…

uses…

the …

term.

Quite telling, don’t you think?

 

[catharina]

God by Catharina…I’d like you views CCC 2089. Would you like to PM on the subject?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

Absolutely not.

Here and now, re CCC 2089:

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

I fully support the truth of the teaching.
There is nothing more to say about it.

Bye.

 

[CMatt25]

Sorry, no…the denial of one revealed truth is called heresy.

Moral relativism denies, just as you do, that there can be any certainty of truth, and is variable, depending upon persons and circumstances. It has been condemned by every pope since the emergence of moderism.

It denies that Christ is truth and sent His Holy Spirit to preseve that truth which leads all men to their salvation. Without objective truth, we can all wander around sprouting our own theories and the foundation of our very faith is lost amid the debate.

If you go back to my earlier premise regarding proof vs faith and all those things you must first place faith in, it is by faith you believe the Catholic Church reveals the truth.

I deny no such thing. I just deny that we can say we know with absolutely certainty other than by faith and belief.

 

[guanophore]

This isn’t the inquisition and the CCC definition of heresy is accurate.

She did not say it was the inqusition. She said you are making the SAME MISTAKE they did, which is confusing heresy with the person.

The definition of heresy has always been accurate, even when people were put to death for embracing them.

The use of the noun heretic only describes someone in heresy. If one fits the definition in CCC 2089 and can be accurately described as a heretic.

We are in agreement on this point.

What we disagree about is that you are qualified to assess whether one fits the description.

Rom 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2 You say, “We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.” 3 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?

It is against the Teaching of the Church for you to pass judgement, including upon yourself, since you cannot know the secrets of your own heart, much less those of another.

James 4:12
12 There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. So who, then, are you to judge your neighbor?

 

[Iowa_Mike]

She did not say it was the inqusition. She said you are making the SAME MISTAKE they did, which is confusing heresy with the person.

The definition of heresy has always been accurate, even when people were put to death for embracing them.

We are in agreement on this point.

What we disagree about is that you are qualified to assess whether one fits the description.

Rom 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2 You say, “We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.” 3 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?

It is against the Teaching of the Church for you to pass judgement, including upon yourself, since you cannot know the secrets of your own heart, much less those of another.

James 4:12
12 There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. So who, then, are you to judge your neighbor?

Off subject, see my PM.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[CMatt25]

Use the links under his name to find “all posts by…”

You will quickly learn that he was baptized Catholic and was confirmed last year (?) while still in a state of dissention against the Teachings of the Church.

Give him some credit, though, because at least he has stopped claiming to be Catholic.

Confirmed last yr??? Uh no Guan. I don’t know where you got that. Try closer to 40 yrs.

 

[catharina]

She did not say it was the inqusition. She said you are making the SAME MISTAKE they did, which is confusing heresy with the person.

The definition of heresy has always been accurate, even when people were put to death for embracing them.

We are in agreement on this point.

What we disagree about is that you are qualified to assess whether one fits the description.

Rom 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2 You say, “We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.” 3 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?

It is against the Teaching of the Church for you to pass judgement, including upon yourself, since you cannot know the secrets of your own heart, much less those of another.

James 4:12
12 There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. So who, then, are you to judge your neighbor?

guanaphore, for the record:

I so appreciate your sincere and helpful contributions to this thread. I also applaud your patience — it is way way way beyond mine. Your telling of the truth is accurate and so very compassionate. I thank you. God bless you.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, it “could”. However, such an approach emanates from moral relativism and denial of the Truth.

Hmmmmm. You applaud me on the one hand Guan for no longer identifying myself as a Catholic. And now you say if it depends on who I ask or where I am, then the ones who don’t want me to consider myself a Catholic are practicing moral relativism and denying the truth?

 

[guanophore]

Confirmed last yr??? Uh no Guan. I don’t know where you got that. Try closer to 40 yrs.

Sorry CMatt. Early senility.

 

[guanophore]

Now I'm a pursecutor of Joan of Arc HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

No, Mike. You are missing the point. Earlier you got wroth with another poster over this same thing!

Thinking like the inquisition does not make you a persecutor of Joan of Arc.

Please give me the citation in the CCC that explains why we cannot use the term........

This is a strawman, Mike. No one here has claimed that the term “heretic” cannot be used by Catholics. What we have said is that individual Catholics are not to use the term with our brethren.

 It really doesn't matter much becausae you never provide specific citations to support your views anyway.

You are right, if you cannot accept the Teaching of the Apostles and of our Lord clearly in the Scriptures on this matter, it doesn’;t much matter. If they cannot influence your attitude, I am sure that I cannot.

I think it a good idea for you to get back to your studies.

Yes.

One of my points of study are the forum rules, where I find this:

“Making any negative statements about our bishops, deacons, priests, sisters or religious brothers is not allowed. Speaking to anyone of them in an inappropriate tone while on the forum is not allowed.”

I think labeling a priest as a heretic is dangerously close, and clearly your tone is quite disparaging of the man. If you cannot be corrected by the words of Sacred Scripture,then perhaps your continued posting privileges are important enough to you that you will take the forum rules into consideration?

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Hmmmmm. You applaud me on the one hand Guan for no longer identifying myself as a Catholic. And now you say if it depends on who I ask or where I am, then the ones who don’t want me to consider myself a Catholic are practicing moral relativism and denying the truth?

CMatt,

God gave us all free will. You have every right to decide to accept the Catholic faith or not to accept it. It does not depend on who you talk to. The Catholic Church’s teachings are immutable, they do no change, they are not subject to pop culture… A person either accepts the Church’s teachings or they don’t. If you are confused I suggest you see a priest and discuss this with him.

God Bless,

Iowa MIke