Pro-choice Catholics

[Toomey1979]

So is it fair to say that to be pro-life means to oppse all abortions regardless of circumstances? Would I be considered pro-choice if I supported abortion rights for rape victims or for women whose preganacies will kill them?

 

[PRmerger]

So is it fair to say that to be pro-life means to oppse all abortions regardless of circumstances? Would I be considered pro-choice if I supported abortion rights for rape victims or for women whose preganacies will kill them?

Only in the same way that you would be considered pro-choice if you supported the rights of a mother to kill her 2 year old toddler conceived by rape.

 

[Rence]

The concept of respect for life is a seamless garment, that runs from the moment of conception to the time of natural death. The immoral justification of setting aside the right to life at any given point can be revealed by applying the principles of doing so to the other stages of life.

I’m glad to read this from you. Sometimes some people forget that people are important even after they are born. Women need advocacy too.

I am glad that you are trying to avoid contributing to other’s sins when you are at work. If you can get this principle into your politics you will really be a shining lamp in a dark place.

Yes, trying to avoid the conflict in that senario is the best thing to do. My conscience would not allow me to bear abandoning a patient in their time of need. Thankfully procedures that conflict with Catholic teaching doesn’t usually happen outside of the operating room in my environment, and I don’t work there.

This is very important to pay attention to, Rence. If there is something legal that you know is immoral, you have a duty not to support it.

Or even better, not be involved in it.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, I understand. I know you identify yourself as Catholic, and from previous discussion of it on these threads, you have demonstrated that you meet the objective criteria of Catholic (being baptized as such).

The reason I am glad that you don’t claim your affiliation on these threads is because you espouse anti-Catholic positions on a great many topics, and it causes confusion and scandal to the Church having someone who claims he is Catholic yet rejects the Teachings of the Church. Your personal beliefs are not consistent with Catholicity. I dont’ know that they ever have been, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that people come here looking for Catholic Answers, and they will often not find them in your posts.

You don’t know that. You know I do not identify myself as a Catholic here. Elsewhere I am having second thoughts as well. Because if I as I am, warts and all, am no longer welcome by Catholics, I’m considering whether I should find myself a church home where I am welcomed.

 

[Rence]

So is it fair to say that to be pro-life means to oppse all abortions regardless of circumstances? Would I be considered pro-choice if I supported abortion rights for rape victims or for women whose preganacies will kill them?

Yes, apparently you have to be opposed to abortion even in the case of rape or when the women’s life is in danger, otherwise you’re considered pro-choice.

 

[PRmerger]

You don’t know that. You know I do not identify myself as a Catholic here. Elsewhere I am having second thoughts as well. Because if I as I am, warts and all, am no longer welcome by Catholics,

Of course you are welcomed by Catholics, Matt!

We just want you to conform your views to Christ’s, not make Christ conform to your views.

I’m considering whether I should find myself a church home where I am welcomed.

This is a curious reason to find a church.

It would seem that the reason to “find a church” would be to find one that teaches the Truth, not one that makes you feel good about your beliefs.

 

[CMatt25]

Ok. I’m going to play this puzzled game, too.

Where do I “keep bringing up a former identification”? Doesn’t “keep” mean more than once?

It was on one of the 3 Conscience vs Church threads in moral theology which were deleted by the mod.

 

[CMatt25]

That’s fine.

I want to emphasize that it’s important to conform one’s beliefs to the Truth, and not try to find some church where its beliefs conform to one’s own.

That would be creating a god and a religion in one’s own image, would it not?

For those who are truly seeking Him (and, truly, they *will *find Him!) logic dictates that it will be the seeker who must change his views, and not Him and His Body.

Not if one does not believe all truth is found where you believe it is.

 

[catharina]

So is it fair to say that to be pro-life means to oppse all abortions regardless of circumstances? YES.
Would I be considered pro-choice if I supported abortion rights for rape victims or for women whose preganacies will kill them? **YES. **

 

[CMatt25]

Huh.

Were you discussing *me *here, just 2 posts after you wrote the above?

I was responding to discussion of me.

 

[catharina]

I was responding to discussion of me.

… and PRmerger,
YES, that included discussing YOU.
Funny, huh?
Or something …

:whacky:

 

[Toomey1979]

Only in the same way that you would be considered pro-choice if you supported the rights of a mother to kill her 2 year old toddler conceived by rape.

I would consider a mother who did such a thing a murderer. Do you consider women have have abortions because pregnacies that will kill them murderers? Do you consider rape victims who get abortions murderers also?

Is that what it means to be pro-life? Is that what I’m suppose to vote for? If so, I would be ashamed to be pro-life. I never will support a policy that criminalizes those women.

 

[guanophore]

I’m glad to read this from you. Sometimes some people forget that people are important even after they are born. Women need advocacy too.

Speaking as one who used to work for an agency that encouraged and referred people for abortions, I can certainly witness to that. For most women, it is the furthest thing from a “choice”.

Or even better, not be involved in it. :)

That might seem better to you, but it is not better from God’s point of view. We have an obligation to be light and salt in our society. It is incumbent upon us to speak out for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves.

Prov 31:8-9
8 Speak out for those who cannot speak,
for the rights of all the destitute.
9 Speak out, judge righteously,
defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Isa 1:16-17
16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17 learn to do good;
seek justice,
rescue the oppressed,
defend the orphan,
plead for the widow.

Thes are not optional, but imperatives.

There is no one more orphaned than the child in the womb of the mother who has chosen to end his life.

 

[Rence]

Speaking as one who used to work for an agency that encouraged and referred people for abortions, I can certainly witness to that. For most women, it is the furthest thing from a “choice”.

Thes are not optional, but imperatives.

There is no one more orphaned than the child in the womb of the mother who has chosen to end his life.

I can’t bring myself to fight for the legal reproductive rights of women, and the rights of women as patients, to be taken away from them in cases of rape and when their lives are in danger. It’s not something I can even bring myself to do. It goes against my conscience in the worst way. Forcing women to be pregnant by rape, or when their lives are in danger, is immoral to me and I certainly won’t “fight” to have their rights taken away from them. My counsel is always for life, but I won’t hold a woman down to conform to rules she doesn’t believe in, doesn’t honor, and wants no part of. It’s her choice to make.

 

[catharina]

I would consider a mother who did such a thing a murderer. Do you consider women have have abortions because pregnacies that will kill them murderers? Do you consider rape victims who get abortions murderers also?

Is that what it means to be pro-life? Is that what I’m suppose to vote for? If so, I would be ashamed to be pro-life. I never will support a policy that criminalizes those women.

Then you are separating yourself from the truth.
The “law” that is embraced by so many young folks
only became LAW 40 yrs ago. Until then,
ALL humanity of faith (any Christian faith)
agreed that abortion is murder most vile.

To put it simply, you’ve been chewed up
and swallowed by an evil campaign of public relations.

Good luck with that.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I can’t bring myself to fight for the legal reproductive rights of women, and the rights of women as patients, to be taken away from them in cases of rape and when their lives are in danger. It’s not something I can even bring myself to do. It goes against my conscience in the worst way. Forcing women to be pregnant by rape, or when their lives are in danger, is immoral to me and I certainly won’t “fight” to have their rights taken away from them. My counsel is always for life, but I won’t hold a woman down to conform to rules she doesn’t believe in, doesn’t honor, and wants no part of. It’s her choice to make.

Poor baby who has the misfortune of having a rapist father.

 

[guanophore]

You don’t know that. You know I do not identify myself as a Catholic here. Elsewhere I am having second thoughts as well. Because if I as I am, warts and all, am no longer welcome by Catholics, I’m considering whether I should find myself a church home where I am welcomed.

This is not surprising. Although the Church welcomes all, we are not at liberty to set aside part of the Truth to accomodate the dissidents. The Catholic faith is One (all or nothing). It is not permissible to pick and choose which parts of the faith one will accept, and which one will reject. One either accepts the obedience of the faith, or is disobedient.

As we have discussed previously, you have already departed from Catholicity, so the external act of going to a comminity for fellowship that has also rejected the Catholic faith is really only a formality.

It is a far greater risk to pursuade oneself that one is in communion, when one rejects the doctrines of the faith, because such a one may be in danger of recieving the Eucharist in an unworthy manner. If one presents oneself to receive the Eucharist when one rejects the faith it embodies, then one engages in a lie with one’s body.

 

[CMatt25]

I think it’s always hard to grasp why someone else would not choose what you yourself may choose (and I don’t mean you, Matt, but everyone, I mean us everyone), but it’s part of life in any situation to allow that individual to make their choice. You can’t force people to choose your choice. And you can’t compare what you perceive to be their situation with what you would choose in the same situation, because it’s not the same. At least we do have the law on our side because if we didn’t there would be a whole more lot of forced abortions. And I say this because if men, parents, other parties can pressure a girl or woman into having an abortion, imagine what they could do if they actually had the legal right to impose those views on her. Imagine a hospital who got a woman to sign a consent upon entry into a hospital having an abortion forced on her because her conditioned wostened while in the ER and she didn’t have the right to consent to or refuse treatment. It makes me shutter to think of what may happen if rights were stripped from us. They were given to us for a reason in the first place…what people do with it is a testimony of their own faith and speaks for itself. But I pray that we never see the say that someone else speaks for us when we can speak for ourselves.

Rence as usual you explain choice far better than I with this post. You mention choice is a testimony to one’s beliefs. Exactly. If I were a woman I don’t see myself choosing abortion. Frankly though I am relieved as a guy I never have to walk in a woman’s shoes as to what she might choose in her circumstances. But indeed it makes me shudder as well if rights were stripped.

 

[catharina]

Rence as usual you explain choice far better than I with this post. You mention choice is a testimony to one’s beliefs. Exactly. If I were a woman I don’t see myself choosing abortion. Frankly though I am relieved as a guy I never have to walk in a woman’s shoes as to what she might choose in her circumstances. But indeed it makes me shudder as well if rights were stripped.

So if you had a child at risk, your own flesh and blood,
you’d be comfortable leavings its life, its fate in the hands
of a mother who seeks abortion?

If so: astonishing.

 

[guanophore]

I would consider a mother who did such a thing a murderer. Do you consider women have have abortions because pregnacies that will kill them murderers?

Yes. It is never permissible to take an innocent life just to save your own. Don’t you remember what Jesus taught about “no greater love”?

Do you consider rape victims who get abortions murderers also?

Yes. If someone wrongs me, how does it make sense to kill another innocent victim?

Is that what it means to be pro-life? Is that what I’m suppose to vote for? If so, I would be ashamed to be pro-life. I never will support a policy that criminalizes those women.

Policy cannot criminalize anyone. Murder is wrong. The taking of innocent life is always and every where wrong.