Pro-choice Catholics

[Rence]

Rence, we’ve discussed this on and off for maybe a year now.

As a nurse, how can you accept that:

There can be a disease that the only cure if for a woman to kill her child.

Because, though rare, it is part of life.

You seem to accept this scenario as a given…and you don’t want to possibly re-examine and say maybe that this scenario isn’t all true.

I don’t accept this senario as a given, rather, it’s a 'rarely, it happens, but it does happen".

We’ve discussed the Arizona case to pieces, there is no way we can possibly know that she was going to die. We never know that for any person.

You’re right about that. We, being outsiders not entitled to anyone’s records, we don’t know what’s going on with anyone either way.

Rence, I’m sorry I don’t mean to pick on you…but your belief system bothers me a lot because you are a Nurse and you are Catholic. If you won’t decide for life **for all cases **and go the extra mile to find a treatment that does not purposefully kill an innocent baby in the womb, really what hope is there for the medical profession at large to go the extra mile.

You don’t need to apologize, I can usually tell when someone is picking on me And I think you’re a kind-hearted person who is just trying to go the extra mile yourself and trying to get me to see your side, and I’m sure it does bother you that we differ so much in our thoughts and beliefs. Actually, I don’t mind dialoging with you, but I feel badly sometimes that I think I really frustrate you I really don’t mean to.

If a patient doesn’t believe a doctor is going the extra mile, they should find another doctor who they trust to do just that. It’s very important to trust your doctor to do what’s best for you and to honor your beliefs and deliver your needs.

Father Corapi says something to the effect that Catholics should be the best morally in any field they go into.

I hope really that you are never in the scenario of being involved in an abortion. I would want you to say no. And I wish you the grace to be able to say no.

Well I hope so too! That’s why I’m not in OB-GYN I wouldn’t want to ever be in a position that puts me in conflict with my duty to protect my patient, and the limitations imposed on me by the Church. It’s just not good. So while I still believe the way I do, I am going to stay out of that arena because I don’t want to be in that position at all.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Actually, I don’t mind dialoging with you, but I feel badly sometimes that I think I really frustrate you I really don’t mean to.

Rence, you frustrate me because I feel like I am trying to tell you the truth in the best way I know how…but you won’t believe me.

God made the small baby in the womb…He does not want it killed.

 

[catharina]

Because, though rare, it is part of life.

I don’t accept this senario as a given, rather, it’s a 'rarely, it happens, but it does happen".

You’re right about that. We, being outsiders not entitled to anyone’s records, we don’t know what’s going on with anyone either way.

You don’t need to apologize, I can usually tell when someone is picking on me And I think you’re a kind-hearted person who is just trying to go the extra mile yourself and trying to get me to see your side, and I’m sure it does bother you that we differ so much in our thoughts and beliefs. Actually, I don’t mind dialoging with you, but I feel badly sometimes that I think I really frustrate you I really don’t mean to.

If a patient doesn’t believe a doctor is going the extra mile, they should find another doctor who they trust to do just that. It’s very important to trust your doctor to do what’s best for you and to honor your beliefs and deliver your needs.

Well I hope so too! That’s why I’m not in OB-GYN I wouldn’t want to ever be in a position that puts me in conflict with my duty to protect my patient, and the limitations imposed on me by the Church. It’s just not good. So while I still believe the way I do, I am going to stay out of that arena because I don’t want to be in that position at all.

rence, do you understand that you have separated yourself from
the Church by denying the truth of her teachings? spreading your
disbelief to others is a cause of great concern. do you know that?

 

[guanophore]

I’m not saying this to make people feel sorry for me but rather to point out that my family was very devout and no one in our Catholic community was there for us when we needed them despite my parents’ extensive involvement in church, volunteer work, etc. and my sister and I were in Catholic school.

I appreciate you sharing your story.

People in the community might have thought abortion was never needed to save a woman’s life well in this one case they chose not to pay attention.

Not sure what you mean by this. Do you think your mother’s pregancy could have been saved had they paid better attention?

**

I spend time here b/c I think of returning to the Church**

I hope you will continue!

silentstar:

but when I see categorical statements that abortion is never needed - doctors told me differently.

There is a critical distinction here, silentstar. An abortion is the deliberate removal of the fetus from the womb for the purpose of terminating the pregnancy. The Church teaches that it is never right to take an innocent life.

Medical treatment for problems such as your mothers may result in the loss of a pregnancy, but the intention is not to take an innocent life. The goal is to treat the medical condition. Pregnancy, in and of itself, is not a medical condition (illnesss).

My feelings are complicated and difficult to sort out but I was told by doctors that Catholics were hypocrites on this issue. I heard really harshly judgmental things said by doctors who thought my mother had thrown her life away and potentially wrecked our family, and that my father was negligent and abusive. The result was I was angry at everyone.

Understandibly so. It sounds like you had a horrible experience from every direction.

I don’t mean to direct this criticism at anyone at CAF and I’m not asking for pity but my mother really should have had an abortion.

No, but she probably needed immediate medical intervention a lot sooner, and some better medical and spiritual direction. Abortion is not an answer to a medical problem. It is a way to end a pregnancy before natural birth.

we needed understanding however they were correct that the Catholic community did not show concern, and I don’t know why.

It is a great tragedy for you whole family. I hope you can find the support now that was not there for you at that time.

At this point I don’t know what to do. My mother accusing me of killing the baby has been difficult for me to forgive and I had later abuse partly b/c my parents were impaired and disconnected.

You have been through a traumatic and horrible experience, followed by more complications and problems. Forgiveness begins with deciding. You make an act of the will that you will forgive her. This might be easier because you know she was not in her right mind. Also, remember that a large part of our struggles are spiritual in origin. The devil loves to wreak havoc with our faith, trying to dislodge us from God. He is the “accuser of the brethren” and sometimes can be most effective when speaking through the mouths of our closest loved ones. Recognize the source, and “resist the devil, and he will flee from you”.

I don’t know if things have changed about Catholics and support for women who have high-risk pregnancies since then.

I think things have improved in general, but I know in some areas people still feel isolated. I recommend you contact project Rachel, and talk to someone there about your experience. It is quite unique, but they are there to help people who have been wounded by abortions.

 

[century153]

My mother, during her 7th and last pregnancy, had toxic shock as a complication of pregnancy. This involved multiple organ failure and 2 weeks in the hospital. She was lucky to survive. She had a stillbirth at 5 months and was so ill she does not know what day that happened. She had needed an abortion but refused it and when she came home she had postpartum psychosis. She accused me of murdering the baby b/c I did not do enough household chores. I was 12. She was never really the same after that and I think it was a combination of psychological trauma and maybe neurological injury from the illness.

I’m not saying this to make people feel sorry for me but rather to point out that my family was very devout and no one in our Catholic community was there for us when we needed them despite my parents’ extensive involvement in church, volunteer work, etc. and my sister and I were in Catholic school. People in the community might have thought abortion was never needed to save a woman’s life well in this one case they chose not to pay attention. I spend time here b/c I think of returning to the Church but when I see categorical statements that abortion is never needed - doctors told me differently. In the rare cases where it is needed the Catholic community for whatever reason fails to pay attention. That is what I was told by doctors in the hospital who quite frankly thought my family was a bunch of behind the times religious idiots for taking this kind of risk.

My feelings are complicated and difficult to sort out but I was told by doctors that Catholics were hypocrites on this issue. I heard really harshly judgmental things said by doctors who thought my mother had thrown her life away and potentially wrecked our family, and that my father was negligent and abusive. The result was I was angry at everyone.

I don’t mean to direct this criticism at anyone at CAF and I’m not asking for pity but my mother really should have had an abortion. Toxic shock is very rare and more associated with tampon use but that was not the problem in this case. That said the doctors by judging my family at that point made me angry b/c we needed understanding however they were correct that the Catholic community did not show concern, and I don’t know why.

I’m afraid I ended up concluding a pox on both their houses - the doctors I felt would judge and the Catholic community who did not seem to care. At this point I don’t know what to do. My mother accusing me of killing the baby has been difficult for me to forgive and I had later abuse partly b/c my parents were impaired and disconnected.

I don’t know if things have changed about Catholics and support for women who have high-risk pregnancies since then.

Dear silentstar - I have always wondered about situations like your Mom’s. I do not know the details but, I felt that if a woman was threatened to the point of near death, even if she was only 3 months pregnant - why couldn’t she have a caesarean birth and the doctors try their best to save both the mother and the infant. Yes, there is a risk to the baby’s life and you would not be able to predict for certain that the mother would recover, but at least you would have tried to save both. In your Mom’s case the choice made destroyed both the baby and the Mom and also hurt probably all family members as a result. You did not say what year this happened but I gather if was recent – within the last 15 years maybe. If not, then I think so much was unknown more that 15 or 20 years ago that we are more informed now and should be able to make better choices. I can only offer you the consolation that the Lord loves you and is calling you to come closer to Him in prayer. Listen to the Holy Spirit and seek the Lord with all your heart – he is there for you. For this is the Word of the Lord - that to anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Believe in Him because of this promise - seek Him and you will find Him. That is all that matters. Its not about being a Catholic, its about Jesus Christ, our Saviour. He will give you rest.

 

[PRmerger]

I know this was asked of Rence. But I myself question how letting both die when one could be saved would be pro life.

No one is saying that the CC says both should die. Both should *live, *if we do what we can to promote this.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. And then there’s the most noble quote from Thomas More in “A Man for all Seasons”: "I die His Majesty’s good servant, but God’s first. "

Divine law above the civil.

 

[catharina]

Yes. And then there’s the most noble quote from Thomas More in “A Man for all Seasons”: "I die His Majesty’s good servant, but God’s first. "

Divine law above the civil.

Always and everywhere …

 

[PRmerger]

My mother, during her 7th and last pregnancy, had toxic shock as a complication of pregnancy. This involved multiple organ failure and 2 weeks in the hospital. She was lucky to survive. She had a stillbirth at 5 months and was so ill she does not know what day that happened. She had needed an abortion but refused it and when she came home she had postpartum psychosis.

This truly is tragic and my heart goes out to you and your mom.

However, just like one would never consider killing one of the 6 of you in order to solve the problem, one ought never consider killing the 7th child in order to solve the problem.

In the rare cases where it is needed the Catholic community for whatever reason fails to pay attention.

I am sorry, but I do not understand this statement. What could the Catholic community have done?

It seems as if you are saying that if the Catholic community had come to your aid–perhaps making meals for you and your siblings, bringing you to school, taking up a collection–then the abortion would not have been needed?

If so, how would this be an example of an abortion being needed to save your mom’s life?

 

[silentstar]

This truly is tragic and my heart goes out to you and your mom.

However, just like one would never consider killing one of the 6 of you in order to solve the problem, one ought never consider killing the 7th child in order to solve the problem.

I am sorry, but I do not understand this statement. What could the Catholic community have done?

It seems as if you are saying that if the Catholic community had come to your aid–perhaps making meals for you and your siblings, bringing you to school, taking up a collection–then the abortion would not have been needed?

If so, how would this be an example of an abortion being needed to save your mom’s life?

The problem that caused the premature labor was triggered by domestic violence. Once the illness was caused it was life-threatening. My mother however should not have gotten pregnant given her awful track record of 6 bad pregnancies and 3 surviving children but my father was physically and sexually abusive to her and me. Once pregnant an abortion would have helped I think if it had been done immediately when she started to have trouble but that didn’t happen and she had a stillbirth.

Half the problem was the doctors who made it sound like we all disgusted them and not b/c they were pro-choice or whatever, but b/c they thought we were idiotic for doing this stuff.

I think a lot of people thought my family was odd and/or were scared of my father who supervised weapons testing of explosives and had a prestigious job as an engineer/manager at a defense agency. I felt that my family was avoided b/c we were strange and if someone had stood up to my father or offered the rest of my family more help it would not have happened. I wanted some concern but people acted like everything was normal. I didn’t know what to do esp. with the postpartum psychosis my mother had and felt helpless.

 

[guanophore]

Because, though rare, it is part of life.

No. Killing your baby does not need to be part of anyones life.

 it's a 'rarely, it happens, but it does happen

It does not ever have to happen.

Well I hope so too! That's why I'm not in OB-GYN :)  I wouldn't want to ever be in a position that puts me in conflict with my duty to protect my patient, and the limitations imposed on me by the Church. It's just not good. So while I still believe the way I do, I am going to stay out of that arena because I don't want to be in that position at all.

Now, if you can just take that next step into recognizing that abortion is not a medical treatment, and that medical treatment, though it sometimes results in the loss of a pregnancy, is not an abortion.

 

[guanophore]

The problem that caused the premature labor was triggered by domestic violence. Once the illness was caused it was life-threatening. My mother however should not have gotten pregnant given her awful track record of 6 bad pregnancies and 3 surviving children but my father was physically and sexually abusive to her and me. Once pregnant an abortion would have helped I think if it had been done immediately when she started to have trouble but that didn’t happen and she had a stillbirth.

Half the problem was the doctors who made it sound like we all disgusted them and not b/c they were pro-choice or whatever, but b/c they thought we were idiotic for doing this stuff.

I think a lot of people thought my family was odd and/or were scared of my father who supervised weapons testing of explosives and had a prestigious job as an engineer/manager at a defense agency. I felt that my family was avoided b/c we were strange and if someone had stood up to my father or offered the rest of my family more help it would not have happened. I wanted some concern but people acted like everything was normal. I didn’t know what to do esp. with the postpartum psychosis my mother had and felt helpless.

A truly horrific situation that sounds like it went on for years. God wants to heal you, and your family. He only allows evil so that greater good can come of it. If you ever doubt that, just look at the crucifix.

 

[Rence]

No. Killing your baby does not need to be part of anyones life.

And yet it is part of many women’s lives.

It does not ever have to happen.

But it does happen.

Now, if you can just take that next step into recognizing that abortion is not a medical treatment, and that medical treatment, though it sometimes results in the loss of a pregnancy, is not an abortion.

But, abortion is a legal and sanctioned medical treatment, and available to any woman who needs it, or even wants it. Until it’s not a legal and sanctioned medical treatment, that’s what it is.

 

[CMatt25]

Hi, CMatt25,

That is the hook in this argument - “…letting both die…” while flying in face of our concept of ‘fairness’ there is NO automatic medical position that this 9 year old IS going to die - but, the fate of her unborn child has been decided.

So… unhooking this argument from the ‘both dying’ idea - if the 9 year od were to live - would you still kill her unborn child? If you are having a problem answering that …

It’s no problem at all for me to answer. Sidbrown asked the question in regard to “if”
life was in danger for the 9 yr old who was raped. I would leave the “if” to the medical professionals and the choice then between the girl and her parents, God and the child’s dr. Not to the government on these personal private matters.

There may be no “automatic”. But I would not ignore medical advice regarding the probability of the 9 yr old child’s life being in danger. If it were, who am I to tell her parents you must take the chance your 9 yr old daughter will not die and then perhaps in the process lose not only the fetus but their daughter as well. Taking such a risk and then perhaps losing 2 lives vs 1 is not pro life to me.

 

[ishii]

Well, thanks, I appreciate you taking the time.

Ok, I’ll try. And I’m doing so by pouring my heart out. This is how I feel about all this. I hope I don’t insult you by doing so. So please don’t take offense…this is how I can answer your question.

Ishii, my position is pro-choice in the cases of rape and when the life of the mother is at risk. I know you don’t agree with me and I accept that. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind, and I’m not trying to say I am right and you are wrong, or anyone else for that matter. But I always hope that they have that choice. Honestly, I don’t think a woman needs to be on death’s door, floating to the light, with her blood all over the floor and running down the halls, in order to receive intervention.

I know you’re not going to agree with me and that’s totally OK. But you’re not going to convince me that a woman should be held down and forcibly made to comply with Church teaching. I’m sorry, but that’s how I feel about it. I am sharing with you how I feel. And I have no unearthly clue why you think that I am not thinking through it as well as you. I’m sure we have both thought through it, and continue to think through it.

A patient diagnosed by their doctor and prescribed a treatment, has the right to either consent to that treatment, or refuse it. If the patient refuses the treatment, end of story. If the patient consents to treatment, they should get it, as it is their right to do so. Women are their own entities. They have ownership over their own body, and they have the right to medical intervention done on their body to help them with whatever they need. It’s their choice. They have the medical consent. To try and deny medical treatment to someone because another person doesn’t agree with it is not allowed thankfully. This is not just how I feel about it, it’s that I agree with the laws that give women their right to autonomy and the right to make such decisions, and receive treatment they have consented to.

I hope you undertand where I’m coming from, because I do understand where you’re coming from.

Well I appreciate your response and civility in your post. You say a woman has “ownership over her own body”. What about the body of the unborn baby? Again, don’t say “the woman has the rights under the law”. I ask, what about the body of the unborn baby? Also, given you think that abortion should be legal in cases of rape or the life of the mother, do you not then agree that the decision of Roe V Wade which legalizes abortion for any reason whatsoever should be overturned? That states should be able to outlaw abortion as they see fit?

Ishii

 

[guanophore]

And yet it is part of many women’s lives.

But it does not HAVE to be. When you speak about killing babies in the womb as “a part of life” it comes across as an inevitability, like growing older - something over which we have no control.

But it is not like aging or other natural processes. Killing the innocent does not HAVE to be a part of life.

It is for many women because they feel trapped.

But it does happen.

Yes, murders and rapes happen every day. The fact that they happen does not make them morally justifyable or supportable. We have an obligation to resist evil.

But, abortion is a legal and sanctioned medical treatment, and available to any woman who needs it, or even wants it. Until it’s not a legal and sanctioned medical treatment, that’s what it is.

Abortion is not “medical treatment”. Abortion is for the sole purpose of ending the pregnancy. Pregnancy is not a medical problem that requires treatment.

Medical treatment, actions taken to address complications that may exist during or because of pregancy, is NOT abortion. Even if the pregnancy is inadvertantly terminated, it is still not abortion. There is NEVER an intention to deliberatly kill the child.

 

[ishii]

Ok, I’ll try, and hopefully you won’t get upset with me for being honest. But the right to consent belongs with the woman until the unborn baby is born on the basis of the woman’s right to autonomy, and freedom to have control over her own body and be in charge of her own reproduction. It’s her choice to make.

But I asked you about the unborn child’s body. What about that? It is seperate and distinct from the mother’s. It is dependent on the mother just as it is if were two months post partum. But when you say “a woman must have the freedom to control her own body” you are ignoring the other body inside her, living and growing and developing just as a two month old lives, grows, and develops. You wouldn’t want a mother to be able to legally kill her two month old post-born baby would you?

Ishii

 

[PRmerger]

I wouldn’t want to ever be in a position that puts me in conflict with my duty to protect my patient, and the limitations imposed on me by the Church. It’s just not good. So while I still believe the way I do, I am going to stay out of that arena because I don’t want to be in that position at all.

This is quite curious. You have no problem proclaiming your dissent from the Church, providing intricate and detailed apologia for your stance, declaring that it’s legal and therefore the woman’s right, being quite adamantine that there’s legitimate, valid and moral reasons for a woman to seek an abortion…

yet you, a nurse, won’t participate in an abortion

because of the “limitations imposed on” you by the Church?

Either you believe what you’ve been proclaiming here

or

you assent and affirm the Church’s teachings.

What “limitations” have been imposed on you by the Church that allow you to proclaim your support of abortion rights in mouth but not in deed?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Catharina,

Thank you. But, Rence isn’t alone in promoting the pro-death culture AND being a nurse at the same time. Organized nursing (American Nursing Association) was hijacked years ago by the radical fems who pushed ‘Reproductive Health’ (abortion only) as a policy.

Of, course ANA does have its standards - and they seriously frown on nurses participating in public executions of convicted criminals.

So, on one hand, it is perfectly acceptable to tear a defenseless human being apart limb by limb and then crush its skull - and on the other it not acceptable to insert an IV line into a condemned criminal so that he can receive a lethal injection. They see no contradiction or conflict in these positions because the criminal is not a ‘Reproductive Health’ issue. I dropped my membership.

Human life is to be helped from conception to natural death. Nursing can play a truly significant role in bringing that principle into reality each day and in the unique setting that every patient brings. Those who encourage the destruction of life have simply failed humanity at its most important point - engaging our own uniqueness with others.

God bless

wonderful to hear that you are an RN.

very reassuring to me - having heard rence present a very different version
of nursing over these past many months, a version that has savaged my mind.

 

[catharina]

Hi, Catharina,

Thank you. But, ----- isn’t alone in promoting the pro-death culture AND being a nurse at the same time. Organized nursing (American Nursing Association) was hijacked years ago by the radical fems who pushed ‘Reproductive Health’ (abortion only) as a policy.

Of, course ANA does have its standards - and they seriously frown on nurses participating in public executions of convicted criminals.

So, on one hand, it is perfectly acceptable to tear a defenseless human being apart limb by limb and then crush its skull - and on the other it not acceptable to insert an IV line into a condemned criminal so that he can receive a lethal injection. They see no contradiction or conflict in these positions because the criminal is not a ‘Reproductive Health’ issue. I dropped my membership.

Human life is to be helped from conception to natural death. Nursing can play a truly significant role in bringing that principle into reality each day and in the unique setting that every patient brings. Those who encourage the destruction of life have simply failed humanity at its most important point - engaging our own uniqueness with others.

God bless

Believe me, I know that there is much corrupt thinking in the medical/nursing communities. What’s been a shock to me is to find anyone, who identifies as Catholic, be willing to support the right to abortion … that is, ANY abortion.