Pro-choice Catholics

[Mary_Gail_36]

At the time of a rape or a pregnancy, the patient with consent is the woman. Until that changes, that’s the way it is. Whether that’s fortunate or unfortunate, that’s the law.

And, yes, it is possible to argue for freedom of religion in both cases. In both cases, one’s religion is not upheld by law when it is imposed on someone else, and it shouldn’t be. Because if Muslim laws were carved into US laws, then should all females regardless of creed be circumstized as children? Radical muslims would think so. So, In the case of the illegality of female circumcision, that baby girl is not being forced to comply with a reigious dictated procedure that she cannot consent to. It’s not me imposing my religion on them, it’s the law protecting the child from an illegal procedure. It’s also illegal to cut off the hand of a thief in the US, though that is a common practice in Islam countries…and worse. When in Rome…

It is illegal because it’s immoral…why is it immoral?

Because the little girl can’t consent to being mutilated? Or because to mutilate a child is inrtrinsically evil?

Abortion is immoral…why? Is it because unborn cannot consent to be killed ? Or is it because it is a helpless human life and intrinsically evil to take that life?

where are the laws to protect those babies from others’ immorality ?

You missed something you said, “At the time of a rape or a pregnancy, the patient with consent is the woman”
How can one consent to killing someone else? Who asks the baby for its consent?

The same way the parents are forbiden by law to mutilate their child.

If someone is allowed to kill their own child…explain why someone is not allowed to mutilate their child?

Why is one wrong but not the other?

 

[Rence]

Rence, I thought the bishops had a separate guide from CA but I wasn’t sure.

yeah, they do, it’s on their website. Here’s one usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf

 

[estesbob]

Not to derail the thread from the OP’s topic, but:
The voting guide doesn’t say that you cannot support a pro-abortion candidate unless there is another more pro-abortion candidate on the roster. It says that being pro-abortion “may disqualify a candidate”, which is most definitely not the same thing. They then have a very well written and detailed list of all the factors one should consider. The fact is, of course the Church doesn’t want you to vote for a pro-choice candidiate, but they do not dictate how you vote or for whom you should vote. They printed guidelines that every Catholic would be smart to read for themselves and follow to the best of their ability with the counsel of their priest if need be.

The fact is the guide affirms that a Catholict cannot in good conscience vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Every Catholic would be smart to read it for themselves and also read the explicit comments of Pope Benedict the XVI Archbishop Chaput and 61 other Catholic bishops of the United States who categorically dismissed the idea that the voting guide allowed for a vote for a pro-abortion candidate when a pro-life alternative was available.

 

[CMatt25]

I always try to understand people, especially those in desperate situations. Isn’t that part of being Christian as well? Their choices may not be choices I would make, but I understand them.

I try as well even if the choices they make under the law of a land might not be the ones I’d make either. But I try to remember I don’t walk in their shoes.

 

[Elizabeth502]

If you found a hundred priests who said the same,
that would not make them faithful. On the contrary.

It would mean they are in dissent.

Are we who are not part of the ministerial priesthood or clergy, in a position to declare them dissenting, or are their bishops in that position?

I get your point that lots of priests may, and do, state things that are in apparent or obvious contradiction to church teaching, but it may be occurring behind the scenes that their superiors are correcting them, and/or their misstatements may not rise to the level of open “dissent.”

 

[Rence]

It is illegal because it’s immoral…why is it immoral?
Because the little girl can’t consent to being mutilated? Or because to mutilate a child is inrtrinsically evil?
Abortion is immoral…why? Is it because unborn cannot consent to be killed ? Or is it because it is a helpless human life and intrinsically evil to take that life?
where are the laws to protect those babies from others’ immorality ?
You missed something you said, “At the time of a rape or a pregnancy, the patient with consent is the woman”
How can one consent to killing someone else? Who asks the baby for its consent?
The same way the parents are forbiden by law to mutilate their child.

Mary Gail, I’m really truly sorry that your’e upset by my opinion. It was never my intention to upset anyone, especially you because you’re always so kind. But my post was a reflection of how I felt about abortion and women’s rights as patients in the cases of rape and when the woman’s life is in danger. You are most welcome to your opinion and I support your right to your opinion. I just don’t share them. The OP asked why we feel the way we feel about pro-choice, and I did that the best way I knew how. I won’t address the issue of female genital mutilation in muslims because it’s completely unrelated and off topic. Maybe in another thread

 

[traillius]

anyone calling themselves catholic, while also supporting abortions, is hypocritical, self-delusional, and also violatory of of church teaching, and willing opposing the moral stance of the church, thus not a true catholic, especially if one is a public figure( a politician, for instance, supporting abortion, but claiming to be catholic.)

 

[CMatt25]

yeah, they do, it’s on their website. Here’s one usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf

Thanks

 

[3DOCTORS]

Jumping back in, please pardon my sort of non sequitor post here.

Perhaps a lesson to all - when these threads get heated, it might be safe to assume there is a post-abortive woman on the thread. Maybe posting vociferously, maybe lurking unknown with tears running down her face.

Somewhere, somehow, for the sake of that soul, mention Project Rachel. I have a dear friend who was healed through Project Rachel, who could tell you how these women often turn pro-choice because of their own experience of pain. Father Corapi tells of being accosted on an airplane by one and subjected to a tirade.

Not saying this to blame anyone. Just a suggestion that mentioning post-abortion healing is a good spiritual work of mercy that can’t be overemphasized.

Also wanted to put in my two cents re the morning-after or emergency contraception in the case of rape. I think it’s definitely wrong if there’s any possibility conception has occurred, and I’m not really keen on it even if not.

When I was still of childbearing potential, if something happened that a baby was conceived - even though not the way it should have happened in a loving marriage - that baby would have half my DNA. And it isn’t responsible for the evil actions of its daddy. I would have it and raise it and try to get the father tracked down and make him pay child support. And maybe who knows, maybe it would make him rethink his life. At any rate, the child could be the one good thing to come out of a tragic situation. BTW this was a position I held when I still could have gotten pregnant.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Mary Gail, I’m really truly sorry that your’e upset by my opinion. It was never my intention to upset anyone, especially you because you’re always so kind. But my post was a reflection of how I felt about abortion and women’s rights as patients in the cases of rape and when the woman’s life is in danger. You are most welcome to your opinion and I support your right to your opinion. I just don’t share them. The OP asked why we feel the way we feel about pro-choice, and I did that the best way I knew how. I won’t address the issue of female genital mutilation in muslims because it’s completely unrelated and off topic. Maybe in another thread

1. I’m not upset.
2. I know this thread isn’t about female genital mutilation…but it isn’t off topic:

If someone is allowed to kill their own child…explain why someone is not allowed to mutilate their child?

Why is one wrong but not the other? Why is it horrible to think about female genital mutilation…but abortion becomes a “choice”?

That’s what I’d like to know.

 

[catharina]

Are we who are not part of the ministerial priesthood or clergy, in a position to declare them dissenting, or are their bishops in that position?

I get your point that lots of priests may, and do, state things that are in apparent or obvious contradiction to church teaching, but it may be occurring behind the scenes that their superiors are correcting them, and/or their misstatements may not rise to the level of open “dissent.”

If a priest is advising Catholics to separate from
actual Church Teaching, the priests are clealry in dissent.

Whether corrected, in repentance, disciplined, whatever -
they have acted in a state of dissent.

 

[catharina]

Jumping back in, please pardon my sort of non sequitor post here.

Perhaps a lesson to all - when these threads get heated, it might be safe to assume there is a post-abortive woman on the thread. Maybe posting vociferously, maybe lurking unknown with tears running down her face.

Somewhere, somehow, for the sake of that soul, mention Project Rachel. I have a dear friend who was healed through Project Rachel, who could tell you how these women often turn pro-choice because of their own experience of pain. Father Corapi tells of being accosted on an airplane by one and subjected to a tirade.

Not saying this to blame anyone. Just a suggestion that mentioning post-abortion healing is a good spiritual work of mercy that can’t be overemphasized.

Also wanted to put in my two cents re the morning-after or emergency contraception in the case of rape. I think it’s definitely wrong if there’s any possibility conception has occurred, and I’m not really keen on it even if not.

When I was still of childbearing potential, if something happened that a baby was conceived - even though not the way it should have happened in a loving marriage - that baby would have half my DNA. And it isn’t responsible for the evil actions of its daddy. I would have it and raise it and try to get the father tracked down and make him pay child support. And maybe who knows, maybe it would make him rethink his life. At any rate, the child could be the one good thing to come out of a tragic situation. BTW this was a position I held when I still could have gotten pregnant.

Yes to all of your statement.

 

[Rence]

Jumping back in, please pardon my sort of non sequitor post here.

Perhaps a lesson to all - when these threads get heated, it might be safe to assume there is a post-abortive woman on the thread. Maybe posting vociferously, maybe lurking unknown with tears running down her face.

Somewhere, somehow, for the sake of that soul, mention Project Rachel. I have a dear friend who was healed through Project Rachel, who could tell you how these women often turn pro-choice because of their own experience of pain. Father Corapi tells of being accosted on an airplane by one and subjected to a tirade.

Not saying this to blame anyone. Just a suggestion that mentioning post-abortion healing is a good spiritual work of mercy that can’t be overemphasized.

Excellent suggestion. Here’s a link: hopeafterabortion.com/

Also wanted to put in my two cents re the morning-after or emergency contraception in the case of rape. I think it’s definitely wrong if there’s any possibility conception has occurred, and I’m not really keen on it even if not.

I understand you.

When I was still of childbearing potential, if something happened that a baby was conceived - even though not the way it should have happened in a loving marriage - that baby would have half my DNA. And it isn’t responsible for the evil actions of its daddy. I would have it and raise it and try to get the father tracked down and make him pay child support. And maybe who knows, maybe it would make him rethink his life. At any rate, the child could be the one good thing to come out of a tragic situation. BTW this was a position I held when I still could have gotten pregnant.

I know of a young girl who was raped, and the fact that a child resulted actually helped convict the rapist. Though, he also has visitation rights now that he’s out of jail, which is a burden on the rape-victim’s family. However, they consider the little girl a blessing, and that one good thing that come out of a tragic situation. Yes, I can understand her too.

 

[CMatt25]

anyone calling themselves catholic, while also supporting abortions, is hypocritical, self-delusional, and also violatory of of church teaching, and willing opposing the moral stance of the church, thus not a true catholic, especially if one is a public figure( a politician, for instance, supporting abortion, but claiming to be catholic.)

Is the Church all those things for calling them Catholic and claiming them to be Catholic?

 

[estesbob]

Jumping back in, please pardon my sort of non sequitor post here.

Perhaps a lesson to all - when these threads get heated, it might be safe to assume there is a post-abortive woman on the thread. Maybe posting vociferously, maybe lurking unknown with tears running down her face.

Somewhere, somehow, for the sake of that soul, mention Project Rachel. I have a dear friend who was healed through Project Rachel, who could tell you how these women often turn pro-choice because of their own experience of pain. Father Corapi tells of being accosted on an airplane by one and subjected to a tirade.

Not saying this to blame anyone. Just a suggestion that mentioning post-abortion healing is a good spiritual work of mercy that can’t be overemphasized.

Also wanted to put in my two cents re the morning-after or emergency contraception in the case of rape. I think it’s definitely wrong if there’s any possibility conception has occurred, and I’m not really keen on it even if not.

When I was still of childbearing potential, if something happened that a baby was conceived - even though not the way it should have happened in a loving marriage - that baby would have half my DNA. And it isn’t responsible for the evil actions of its daddy. I would have it and raise it and try to get the father tracked down and make him pay child support. And maybe who knows, maybe it would make him rethink his life. At any rate, the child could be the one good thing to come out of a tragic situation. BTW this was a position I held when I still could have gotten pregnant.

And I suspect post-abortive men. Quite a few years ago I went through a lot of training in order to counsel post-abortive men. In the case of the man you run into very different situations between the man who promoted and in many cases paid for the abortion and the man who wanted the child to be born but was given no choice while his child was killed.

 

[beafedor]

I understand the choice to abort in the case of rape just as well as I understand the choice to not aborn in the case of rape, regardless of the choice I would make myself. However, whatever choice I make, I want it to be my choice and not someone else’s choice imposed on me.

My dear “pro-choice” Catholic brothers and sisters, regardless of the immorality of the act of abortion, we don’t live in an ideal world where a woman can “enjoy the right to choose” abortion as she can enjoy her right to vote. Please consider the following:

1/How often is the choice of abortion really the pregnant woman’s choice? Mine as in many other cases, was pushed on me by both father and health care professional. Would you like to read hundred of testimonies of coerced abortions? there is quite a few on this website silentnomoreawareness.org/
Please read this report too: unfairchoice.info/pdf/FactSheets/ForcedAbortions.pdf

2/Please read Rebecca Kiessling’s and many other “conceived in rape” stories. rebeccakiessling.com/

I’ve got a lot more to say about this subject, for example that killing our child through abortion doesn’t make us magically “unpregnant”, doesn’t turn back time, doesn’t undo the sexual act and after we are released from the clinic, we don’t go back to a normal life as if nothing happened.

And by the way, If you believe that abortion is not good enough for you, then why do you think it would be good for others?

 

[Rence]

1. I’m not upset.
2. I know this thread isn’t about female genital mutilation…but it isn’t off topic:

If someone is allowed to kill their own child…explain why someone is not allowed to mutilate their child?

Why is one wrong but not the other? Why is it horrible to think about female genital mutilation…but abortion becomes a “choice”?

That’s what I’d like to know.

Well, ok Mary Gail, I’m glad you’re not upset. I’ll try to the best of my ability to explain my opininon. Currently the right to consent or refuse treatment is with the pregnant woman, whether that woman is in the emergency room an hour after a tragic rape, or in the emergency room established to be pregnant and in some physical medical crisis. That’s the law.

A zygote/embryo/fetus/child who has not been born yet unfortunately doesn’t have the same legal rights as an already born child (your example muslim infant girl). Your muslim infant girl has the same rights as the woman in crisis…even though she can’t speak for herself yet, her adult advocates consent for her. Just like if the woman in crisis is no longer responsive, her adocates (parents, siblings, husband, durable power of attorney) speak for her.

 

[traillius]

Is the Church all those things for calling them Catholic and claiming them to be Catholic?

The Church can’t know everyone’s private thoughts, unless they are shared. However the church does have teaching that says the same, in different words, perhaps, as I did, to the effect that those opposing church teaching, notably abortion, for this thread, have automatically cut themselves off from the Church, thus have made themselves disobedient. The only remedy is to confess the sin, and to change. Those who publically state that they are catholic, and that they support abortion, or even that the church says abortion is okay, are not only disobedient, but also guilty of scandal, slander, and libel. And they are further guilty if they receive eucharist while in this state.

 

[CMatt25]

1. I’m not upset.
2. I know this thread isn’t about female genital mutilation…but it isn’t off topic:

If someone is allowed to kill their own child…explain why someone is not allowed to mutilate their child?

Why is one wrong but not the other? Why is it horrible to think about female genital mutilation…but abortion becomes a “choice”?

That’s what I’d like to know.

You might have to go back nearly 40 yrs and look at Roe v Wade. It gave women a choice in the first trimester. Didn’t disallow restrictions beyond. I myself voted for parental notification for instance where I live not many yrs ago and the US Congress passed a partial birth ban. Just examples of restrictions. I’m not by any stretch a legal expert but the law of a land sometimes has to take into account a variety of factors. Perhaps dealing with balancing rights, when personhood with legal rights is determined, and so forth. The end result may not be perfect or satisfy us all, but society on the whole in a democracy of plural beliefs does it’s best to come up with some law for the land.

 

[Rence]

My dear “pro-choice” Catholic brothers and sisters, regardless of the immorality of the act of abortion, we don’t live in an ideal world where a woman can “enjoy the right to choose” abortion as she can enjoy her right to vote.

Actually, by law, yes they do.

Please consider the following:

1/How often is the choice of abortion really the pregnant woman’s choice? Mine as in many other cases, was pushed on me by both father and health care professional. Would you like to read hundred of testimonies of coerced abortions? there is quite a few on this website silentnomoreawareness.org/
Please read this report too: unfairchoice.info/pdf/FactSheets/ForcedAbortions.pdf

Being coerced into having and abortion is not the same thing that I am talking about. A woman should never feel that she doesn’t have a choice and must have an abortion due to pressures around her. That’s a whole other travesty. What I was talking about was the right of the patient to choose.

2/Please read Rebecca Kiessling’s and many other “conceived in rape” stories. rebeccakiessling.com/

Thank you for the link.

And by the way, If you believe that abortion is not good enough for you, then why do you think it would be good for others?

It’s not a matter of whether or not abortion is not good enough for me, or anyone else. It’s the matter of the CHOICE is as good for me as it is for others. I don’t think I should be treated any different than anyone else. I want the choice for me just as I appreciate the choice for others.