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estesbob
Guest
The primary tool of abortion apologists is to change the subject. Please let us not get drawn into a semantics game as to what constitutes a" Catholic."
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estesbob
Guest
You’re more than welcome to express your opinion as long as people realize that your directly conflicts with the teachings of the Church. The Church does not now or ever has bought into the fiction that this was an issue about"choice"
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Rence
Guest
Well, my priests said that I was in line with Catholic teaching. They said that my understanding and empathy for the wants and needs of the women in these situations doesn’t separate me from the Church. They said if I were to advocate abortion, or assist in an abortion, or counsel someone to get an abortion, or drive someone to an abortion clinic, or do something to actively encourage or propagate abortion, THEN I would be disobedient to the Church. But it is not sinful to understand and empathize with women who want one in their dire circumstances. It’s also not wrong for me to want to own my own body and not be dictated to by others and forced against my will to conform with others. My desire for the freedom to make my own choices about my own self is not sinful.
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CMatt25
Guest
Yes but I was merely addressing your comments about calling themselves Catholic. None of the above which as far as I can see addresses that. As even the most severed excommunicated Catholic is nonetheless still considered a Catholic by even the Church. There’s a thread ongoing on here now about who the Church considers Catholic. Peace.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Oh so the unborn do not get the same rights as the born. Shouldn’t they? Why not?
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CMatt25
Guest
No one changed anything. It was brought up after Rence’s eloquent answer to a question, if it wasn’t before in the thread (I don’t know because I haven’t read every post thoroughly in the thread) as to who is called Catholic and then response followed. But I’m with you Bob on lets not. Lets just agree who is called Catholic in the Church and move on. Amen to that!
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Tigg
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But, Rence…I am crying tears here! Regardless of law or rape, who advocates for that zygote/embryo/fetus/child, the one, if left alone, will be a living, breathing autonomous life. (And who, incidentally, also had no “choice” regarding the manner of its creation.)
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Rence
Guest
I’m sorry, I don’t want to cause people to cry over my thoughts and views. But I understand what you’re saying and your perspective. I really do.
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Personanongrata
Guest
I don’t need to say anything except:Ok, I’ll bite, but I won’t be dragged into an arguementI’ll simply answer your question as best I can.
Yes, I’m a practicing Catholic. And my mom and I are among the most practicing Catholic that I know IRL…I don’t know anyone as conservative as the Catholics on this forum though. So yes, I am pro-choice, particularly in 2 cases:
And while I don’t agree at all with having an abortion after that time period (as in beyond the emergency stange in the emergency room), I can completely understand why a rape victim who finds herself pregnant would want one. And I can completely understand why a rape victim who finds herself pregnant would NOT want one as well. I just acknowledge that everyone is different and may not be able to go through with a pregnancy resulting from a rape, any more that some may not be able to go through with an abortion, despite a rape.
- of of those cases is rape. The US bishops have sanctioned the use of the morning after pill in the emergency room right after a rape, and I believe offering it to every single rape victim should be required of every single hospital (Catholic or not) and should be in legislation to make it so. The guidelines given for its usage is outlined here: catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0566.html
No arguements, the US Bishops allow it’s usage in the case of rape, and the guidelines are documented and published. And while some conservatives equate it to abortion, I do not. And that’s one of the reasons why I think it should remain legal, because the care of a rape victim in the emergency room should be standard and across the board regardless of scrupulosity, just like blood transfusion therapy is offered as indicated, despite the religiosity of the nurse ordered to give it.
and 2) The other is when the mother’s life is in danger. No arguments, as a nurse I know full well the ramifications that pregnancy can have on a woman, especially one that is chronically ill. Yes, pregnancy is not a disease, however the physiological changes that pregnancy bring to a woman’s body can very well cause or exaserbate pathological processes. It’s very rare, but it happens. And it should be the woman’s choice. I know there are those out there that would call this the “ultimate sacrifice” for a woman to just die, but as God has given us free will, some may consider other factors in their lives, such as others who depend on her. Whether the patient declines prescribed treatment or consents, it should be their choice, and I undestand both.
and 3) related to the above:
I don’t believe laws should be made to be molded to any one religion’s rules and laws, any religion. And we can argue until the moon turns blue about abortion being a secular issue, and not a Catholic issue, but in the cases of rape and when the woman’s life is in danger, it is ONLY a Catholic issue. The most devout of Jewish even allow it for the life of the mother. The most devout of other religions will consider exceptions in the case of rape and danger to the mother. And yes, the Catholic religion is the True religion and everyone should be following it and everyone should be forced to follow it by law, but being Catholic is a choice, and not something can be forced. And just like I wouldn’t want the laws of Islam or Judaism to be forced on me, I will not try to force my religion on another person.
That said, I never thought I was “pro-choice” until I came to this forum, but if it makes me pro-choice because of my understanding of why those who would want an abortion due to being raped, or who are in danger of losing their lives from the changes a pregnancy brings on, then so be it
Mind you, I’d never counsel anyone to get an abortion in these circumstances. And I’d do all I could to present the options as acceptable by the Church, but in the end it’s their choice, but I won’t try to hold them hostage as some conservatives suggest we do…
As a nurse, I keep myself out of these senarios. I will probably never work in OB because of these guidelines that the Church imposes. And I will not work anywhere where they do abortions, not on purpose anyway. And I have no desire to work in surgery anymore, so that “not on purpose” will probably never happen. But I do understand these women, on both sides.
DITTO!!!
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estesbob
Guest
He was wrong and you should report him to your Bishop lest he lead others into sin.
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beafedor
Guest
Rence, let me share my heart with you. One the one hand I read these words on the link that you have provided:
“Not a day goes by that I don’t think of my lost child. When I wake up in the morning, I know I’ve had an abortion. I would never wish this pain on anybody.”
“He was real and he was our son and I miss him.”
"I still cry. There isn’t a day that goes by and I don’t think of the baby, what he or she would look like. "
“I made myself not think about what I was doing, just put my heart away and do what had to be done. I was devastated. . . . There isn’t a day that goes by I don’t think about my baby.”
“I am so sorry. I think about you every day.”
“I felt abandoned, incredibly lonely.”
“I hold my stomach and I feel an emptiness.”
“I feel disconnected from my own body and my own feelings.”
“I felt like I left a part of my soul back at the clinic and I felt empty inside.”
“I feel numb and dead inside.”
And on the other hand I hear you say: It’s the matter of the CHOICE is as good for me as it is for others. I don’t think I should be treated any different than anyone else. I want the choice for me just as I appreciate the choice for others.
I’m feeling sick to my stomach right now because you are a nurse and you know exactly what a pregnant woman is and what a new conceived life is and what an abortion is. I’m trying to show you the spiritual and mental consequences of abortion (I didn’t even mentioned the cases of perforated uterus, bleeding to death etc…) I’m praying that you ponder the words of the aborted mothers who made the “choice”.
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Rence
Guest
It’s the matter of the CHOICE is as good for me as it is for others. I don’t think I should be treated any different than anyone else. I want the choice for me just as I appreciate the choice for others.
I’m feeling sick to my stomach right now because you are a nurse and you know exactly what a pregnant woman is and what a new conceived life is and what an abortion is. I’m trying to show you the spiritual and mental consequences of abortion (I didn’t even mentioned the cases of perforated uterus, bleeding to death etc…) I’m praying that you ponder the words of the aborted mothers who made the “choice”.
I really appreciate you sharing your heart with me. Thank you
And as a nurse, I keep myself clear of situations that would put me in conflict with the Church.
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Christopher68
Guest
If a pregnant woman is driving her car in a car pool lane (designated for two or more people) and she gets pulled over by a traffic officer, she’s going to get a ticket.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
So she gets a ticket.
Does that segue that her child’s right to life should not be respected?
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estesbob
Guest
She will get a ticket I’m sure they’re not going to kill her child for driving in the wrong lane.
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estesbob
Guest
I’m feeling sick to my stomach right now because you are a nurse and you know exactly what a pregnant woman is and what a new conceived life is and what an abortion is. I’m trying to show you the spiritual and mental consequences of abortion (I didn’t even mentioned the cases of perforated uterus, bleeding to death etc…) I’m praying that you ponder the words of the aborted mothers who made the “choice”.
I really appreciate you sharing your heart with me. Thank you
And as a nurse, I keep myself clear of situations that would put me in conflict with the Church.
Why would you want the choice of being allowed to kill your child and how would you reconcile supporting the choice to kill one’s child with the teachings of the church?
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Rence
Guest
I’ve tried my best to answer the OP’s original post in my first reply on this thread.
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Christopher68
Guest
In an earlier post I sensed you were perplexed that society as a whole did not view “born” and “pre-born” the same way. I was providing an example of where societal rules do in fact differentiate between born and unborn, and you seem to be okay with that.So she gets a ticket.
Does that segue that her child’s right to life should not be respected?
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sidbrown
Guest
I did not see any official Church declaration that Father Drinan was a heretic. Do you have one or are you the sole and official judge and jury as to who is and who is not a heretic in the Roman Catholic Church? How did you get the authorisation to make those decisions for the Pope?
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CMatt25
Guest
Understanding is something I would hope both sides of this issue can agree is a good thing to work on. Like you Rence I understand the other pov. If we simply dig in and not try to understand the other side where does that get us? No where. Just further dug in with less room to work together on things we might agree on. I would hope there are those on both sides of this issue who would, for instance, agree fostering programs to help aleviate a woman’s feeling of needing to abort and to make abortion rarer is not a bad thing. At least I know there are those of us on the pro choice side who feel that way. And would hope there are among our friends on the anti-choice side as well. And that it is not simply all or nothing. Overturn Roe. Outlaw choice in all 50 states or we’re not playing and nothing else.
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