Pro-choice Catholics

[beafedor]

“The conceptus is a being who is becoming, not a becoming striving toward being. She is not a potential life, she is a life with great potential. She is not the mother,
she is an other — a somebody other than the mother. A woman, however beautiful, however complex when fully grown, begins life as a single cell, a zygote — that stage in human development through which we all pass. She fulfills “the four criteria necessary to all life — metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction. Her genetic makeup is established at conception, determining to a great extent her own individual, physical characteristics”: her eyes, her hair, her skin color, bone structure, her gender. So let us not be confused, “she did not come from a zygote — she once was a zygote. She did not come from an embryo, she once was an embryo. She did not come from a fetus, she once was a fetus”. She did not come from a little girl — she once was a little girl. When is a woman not a woman? The answer is absolute, non-negotiable. To argue against would be to ignore the innate, the fact of the matter. The answer can never be a matter of opinion or choice. This is not a metaphysical contention. This is biology 101. The answer is scientifically self-evident — as inherent as the inalienable. Therefore, the ability to pursue happiness is contingent upon liberty — her liberty, and her freedom is solely dependent upon the mother of all human rights… the right of life.” Gary Cherone (lead singer Van Halen, Extreme) 1999

 

[CMatt25]

“The conceptus is a being who is becoming, not a becoming striving toward being. She is not a potential life, she is a life with great potential. She is not the mother,
she is an other — a somebody other than the mother. A woman, however beautiful, however complex when fully grown, begins life as a single cell, a zygote — that stage in human development through which we all pass. She fulfills “the four criteria necessary to all life — metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction. Her genetic makeup is established at conception, determining to a great extent her own individual, physical characteristics”: her eyes, her hair, her skin color, bone structure, her gender. So let us not be confused, “she did not come from a zygote — she once was a zygote. She did not come from an embryo, she once was an embryo. She did not come from a fetus, she once was a fetus”. She did not come from a little girl — she once was a little girl. When is a woman not a woman? The answer is absolute, non-negotiable. To argue against would be to ignore the innate, the fact of the matter. The answer can never be a matter of opinion or choice. This is not a metaphysical contention. This is biology 101. The answer is scientifically self-evident — as inherent as the inalienable. Therefore, the ability to pursue happiness is contingent upon liberty — her liberty, and her freedom is solely dependent upon the mother of all human rights… the right of life.” Gary Cherone (lead singer Van Halen, Extreme) 1999

Beafedor, I’m not sure anyone here is advocating the human embryo is not a human embryo. We know it is not an embryo of a rabbit for instance. But an acorn is not yet an oak tree either. The issue goes deeper than zygotes and embryos. What a democracy of plural views and beliefs in regard to the development into personhood with full rights, ensoulment, and such does is come up with its law for a land. Science is unlikely to ever prove the point of when ensoulment occurs for instance. We have our beliefs. So a law is developed for a democratic land. On this it requires a balancing of rights in an imperfect world. Women’s rights vs the rights of the unborn embryo. It was you who said earlier or I believe it was you who said we do not live in an ideal world of choice for women. You are correct on the point we do not live in an ideal world. That is something we yet hope in earnest faith shall come for us as heaven’s door is open to us and when heaven and earth become one. I understand your arrived at position of anti choice. But sometimes I get the idea anti choice folks (not necessarily meaning you do this) think pro choice people arrive at their position in just some very loosey goosey manner. Without much thought, contemplation, prayer and more prayer. I only speak for myself here but I know nothing could be further from the truth in my case. I do not identify as a Catholic and by no means do I proclaim to speak for the Church on the forum. But I can imagine not only I but others too, including those who do identify with the Catholic faith, have struggled greatly with this issue over time and some of us may well still be at times. It is a difficult issue that many in America across the spectrum of faiths do not find black and white. As Rence said she did her best to answer a question. And I hope my thoughts have perhaps helped a tad bit as well in understanding. God bless you and all here immensely in our walks and peace be with you and each of us always.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Beafedor, I’m not sure anyone here is advocating the human embryo is not a human embryo. We know it is not an embryo of a rabbit for instance. But an acorn is not yet an oak tree either. The issue goes deeper than zygotes and embryos. What a democracy of plural views and beliefs as to the development into personhood with full rights, ensoulment, and such does is come up with its law for a land. Science is unlikely to ever prove the point of when ensoulment occurs for instance. We have our beliefs. So a law is developed for a democratic land. You said earlier or I believe it was you who said we do not live in an ideal world of choice for women. You are correct on the point we do not live in an ideal world. That is something we yet hope in earnest faith shall come for us as heaven’s door is open to us and when heaven and earth become one. I understand your arrived at position of anti choice. But sometimes I get the idea anti choice folks (not necessarily meaning you do this) think pro choice people arrive at their position in just some very loosey goosey manner. Without much thought, contemplation, prayer and more prayer. I only speak for myself here but I know nothing could be further from the truth in my case. I do not identify as a Catholic and by no means do I proclam to speak for the Church on the forum. But I can imagine not only I but others too, including those who do identify with the Catholic faith, have struggled greatly with this issue over time and some of us may well still be at times. It is a difficult issue that many in America across the spectrum of faiths do not find black and white. As Rence said she did her best to answer a question. And i hope my thoughtsd have perhaps helped a tad bit as well in understanding. God bless you immensely in your walk and peace be with you always.

Abortion in the US was not legalized through a democratic process…no one voted according to what they believed.

Roe v Wade was decided because the rights to privacy were deemed higher than the right of a small human to live and grow in his own mother.

An human embryo is a small, less develpoed human. Because it is human, it’s right to life should be protected by society.

Abortion solves no problems.

Abortion is evil.

 

[CMatt25]

Abortion in the US was not legalized through a democratic process…no one voted according to what they believed.

Roe v Wade was decided because the rights to privacy were deemed higher than the right of a small human to live and grow in his own mother.

An human embryo is a small, less develpoed human. Because it is human, it’s right to life should be protected by society.

Abortion solves no problems.

Abortion is evil.

I was not quite of age yet with the right to vote at the time. But I assume as I myself have ever since reaching the age to have the right, that people voted in elections. Electing a President via Electoral College votes in the same way as now. Who in turn nominate SC justice candidates. Who in turn are confirmed by representatives we elect. Personally though I wouldn’t exactly fear a popular direct vote. As I honestly don’t believe the majority of Americans would vote the extreme with no exceptions.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I did not see any official Church declaration that Father Drinan was a heretic. Do you have one or are you the sole and official judge and jury as to who is and who is not a heretic in the Roman Catholic Church? How did you get the authorisation to make those decisions for the Pope?

An official declaration by the Church is not necessary. The definition of a heretic is simply this:

her·e·sy   /ˈhɛrəsi/ Show Spelled
[her-uh-see] Show IPA

–noun, plural -sies.

1. opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, esp. of a church or religious system.
2. the maintaining of such an opinion or doctrine.
3. Roman Catholic Church . the willful and persistent rejection of any article of faith by a baptized member of the church.
4. any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs, customs, etc.
   Use heresy in a Sentence

There is no question that Fr. D was pro-abortion… none what-so-ever. So he fits the definition of a heretic like a custom pair of shoes.

Remember the Arian Heresy, it was the denial of the true divinity of Jesus Christ. Those who belived it were heretics. Another one is the Nestorian Heresy see the CCC.

Unfortunately not many people realize that by persitantly denying an article of faith makes them a heretic.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[century153]

How are you doing Century?

OK, hmmmm, my answer is hard to give. I guess I would say that I am Pro-Life. I know people possibly will say that there is a big butt.

I do attend church regular along with a Bible Study every week. I help give the CRHP weekends.

OK, here is the biggie!! I voted for Obama!!!

I felt he was the better candidate than McCain.

I am glad I got that off my chest. Now for 2012, I do not know.

I think that Abortion should not be done except for in a very extreme measure. That is my only issue. Something has to be happening, that is extremely sensitive and will not hurt both the Baby and the Mother.

I know I will be vilified later and I am sorry but that is How I feel.

Paul

Hey Paul – you have every right to your feelings. I know lots of people who voted for Obama and they probably are pro-life. As for me, I served on the election committee (you know when people come out to vote, not for any particular candidate) and I did not vote (my CHOICE) because I could not in good conscience vote for McCain and because Obama was pro-choice I just couldn’t compromise. Was that the right thing to do? Who knows? I’m still wondering. The fact is, Obama doesn’t really make the decision - in the end it is the american people who make the decision. I believe one day it will be amended. anyway, thank you for your post in (name removed by moderator)ut. God bless you.

 

[century153]

OK, maybe I am not seeing something right here?

Now, I am not saying that I believe in Abortion, so lets get that out of the way.

He voted against on the Bills that were brought up in the Illinois Congress.

The reason was that they were going to circumvent the Roe V Wade law. And as a Constitutional Law person he knew what they were doing. Sooner or Later the Bill would have been ruled Unconstitutional. He actually never said that he wants women to be able to have a Partial-Birth Abortion, never. This is why I do not like Politics, because people try to do a run around the actual issue at hand.

About Abortion in General, I think the Supreme Court Justices in 1973 should have the blame for all of this. They knew if it went through that it would be decades before anything would be changed at all. Meaning they would be dead by the time it came up again.

I will leave this thread for now.

Paul

 

[century153]

Jumping back in, please pardon my sort of non sequitor post here.

Perhaps a lesson to all - when these threads get heated, it might be safe to assume there is a post-abortive woman on the thread. Maybe posting vociferously, maybe lurking unknown with tears running down her face.

Somewhere, somehow, for the sake of that soul, mention Project Rachel. I have a dear friend who was healed through Project Rachel, who could tell you how these women often turn pro-choice because of their own experience of pain. Father Corapi tells of being accosted on an airplane by one and subjected to a tirade.

Not saying this to blame anyone. Just a suggestion that mentioning post-abortion healing is a good spiritual work of mercy that can’t be overemphasized.

Also wanted to put in my two cents re the morning-after or emergency contraception in the case of rape. I think it’s definitely wrong if there’s any possibility conception has occurred, and I’m not really keen on it even if not.

When I was still of childbearing potential, if something happened that a baby was conceived - even though not the way it should have happened in a loving marriage - that baby would have half my DNA. And it isn’t responsible for the evil actions of its daddy. I would have it and raise it and try to get the father tracked down and make him pay child support. And maybe who knows, maybe it would make him rethink his life. At any rate, the child could be the one good thing to come out of a tragic situation. BTW this was a position I held when I still could have gotten pregnant.

Thank you dear 3doctors – I appreciate your mentioning Project Rachel - also there is Rachel’s Vineyard – www.rachelsvineyard.org . If anyone on this thread needs to talk to someone – please search these ministrys out.

 

[century153]

My dear “pro-choice” Catholic brothers and sisters, regardless of the immorality of the act of abortion, we don’t live in an ideal world where a woman can “enjoy the right to choose” abortion as she can enjoy her right to vote. Please consider the following:

1/How often is the choice of abortion really the pregnant woman’s choice? Mine as in many other cases, was pushed on me by both father and health care professional. Would you like to read hundred of testimonies of coerced abortions? there is quite a few on this website silentnomoreawareness.org/
Please read this report too: unfairchoice.info/pdf/FactSheets/ForcedAbortions.pdf

2/Please read Rebecca Kiessling’s and many other “conceived in rape” stories. rebeccakiessling.com/

I’ve got a lot more to say about this subject, for example that killing our child through abortion doesn’t make us magically “unpregnant”, doesn’t turn back time, doesn’t undo the sexual act and after we are released from the clinic, we don’t go back to a normal life as if nothing happened.

And by the way, If you believe that abortion is not good enough for you, then why do you think it would be good for others?

Thank you - thank you.

 

[JimG]

I did not see any official Church declaration that Father Drinan was a heretic. Do you have one or are you the sole and official judge and jury as to who is and who is not a heretic in the Roman Catholic Church? How did you get the authorisation to make those decisions for the Pope?

I don’t think I would call Fr. Drinan a heretic, just a man who was somehow morally blind with respect to the issue of abortion, as even his former staffer, a Baptist, notes in this article.

Excerpt: “Yet there was one massive blind spot in Drinan’s vision for human rights—namely, the rights of the unborn. Despite his Catholic faith and his priestly calling, Drinan consistently (or rather, inconsistently) defended the Supreme Court’s decision inRoe v. Wade. The ruling came at the beginning of his second term in Congress, creating a constitutional “right” to abortion. In Congress, he even went so far as to support federal funding for abortion. On this issue, liberal dogma and Democratic orthodoxy demanded—and got—his highest loyalty.”

And, since Fr. Drinan continues to cause untold scandal even in death, here’s another article to clarify the matter of his public career.

 

[Rohanfan]

Sorry, but no one on CAF can exonerate you. When I want to get something off my chest, I most normally go to confession. I voted in the last election and chose NEITHER Obama or McCain.

Speaking just for myself, of course, I’ve found that I must direct my political ideology into the larger parameter of the truth of my faith.

In which i go regularly.

 

[Rohanfan]

CAF is not a place where one should go to confess their sins. If you voted for Obama need to go to confession and ask your Priest for absolution. Between now and 2012 I suggest you spend some time learning not only what the church teaches about abortion but why.

Sir, yes I do go to my Priest and he is a very good man. Like I said earlier, it has to be very, very rare. The mother and baby are in danger.

Paul

 

[CMatt25]

He was wrong and you should report him to your Bishop lest he lead others into sin.

Bob, is there any chance a bishop could give misinformation too and Rence would have to continue up the chain of command or does misinformation stop with the priests?

 

[Iowa_Mike]

If a pregnant woman is driving her car in a car pool lane (designated for two or more people) and she gets pulled over by a traffic officer, she’s going to get a ticket.

Why is it that when a pregnant woman is murdered the murderer is often charged with two counts of murder?

Gob Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[catharina]

Sir, yes I do go to my Priest and he is a very good man. Like I said earlier, it has to be very, very rare. The mother and baby are in danger.

Paul

There is no way that a Catholic can support abortion of any kind and for any reason
if he/she is supporting the teachings of the Church.

There are no exceptions that allow for abortion.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Beafedor, I’m not sure anyone here is advocating the human embryo is not a human embryo. We know it is not an embryo of a rabbit for instance. But an acorn is not yet an oak tree either. The issue goes deeper than zygotes and embryos. What a democracy of plural views and beliefs in regard to the development into personhood with full rights, ensoulment, and such does is come up with its law for a land. Science is unlikely to ever prove the point of when ensoulment occurs for instance. We have our beliefs. So a law is developed for a democratic land. On this it requires a balancing of rights in an imperfect world. Women’s rights vs the rights of the unborn embryo. It was you who said earlier or I believe it was you who said we do not live in an ideal world of choice for women. You are correct on the point we do not live in an ideal world. That is something we yet hope in earnest faith shall come for us as heaven’s door is open to us and when heaven and earth become one. I understand your arrived at position of anti choice. But sometimes I get the idea anti choice folks (not necessarily meaning you do this) think pro choice people arrive at their position in just some very loosey goosey manner. Without much thought, contemplation, prayer and more prayer. I only speak for myself here but I know nothing could be further from the truth in my case. I do not identify as a Catholic and by no means do I proclaim to speak for the Church on the forum. But I can imagine not only I but others too, including those who do identify with the Catholic faith, have struggled greatly with this issue over time and some of us may well still be at times. It is a difficult issue that many in America across the spectrum of faiths do not find black and white. As Rence said she did her best to answer a question. And I hope my thoughts have perhaps helped a tad bit as well in understanding. God bless you and all here immensely in our walks and peace be with you and each of us always.

Jeremias 1:5
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

The notion of ensoulment was abandoned in Midieval times as knowledge of biology advanced. The above scripture reference supports the Catholic Church’s position that life is sacred from conception until natural death. That is what is happening today as science advances…step-by-step…new technology like ultra-sound allows us to see into the womb…DNA proves the baby is a unique person because the baby has a unique DNA that is a combination mom and dad’s. The argument that the baby doesn’t become human until some point in it’s development yet to be determined simply doesn’t wash…particularly when one considers late term abortion.

Setting aside the religious aspect it is impossible to escape science which has found that human life begins at conception. If you leave that zygote alone, baring accidents, disease or an act of nature…that zygote will grow into a baby. The idea that an acorn is not yet an oak tree is the same thing…it will be baring accidents, disease etc. It cannot be logically argued that abortion doesn’t kill a baby or pulling up an oak tree sapling doesn’t kill an oak tree anymore that one can successfully argue that water isn’t wet.

There can be no compromise regarding abortion…it is murder pure and simple.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Iowa_Mike]

There is no way that a Catholic can support abortion of any kind and for any reason
if he/she is supporting the teachings of the Church.

There are no exceptions that allow for abortion.

Right on!

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[catharina]

Jeremias 1:5
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

The notion of ensoulment was abandoned in Midieval times as knowledge of biology advanced. The above scripture reference supports the Catholic Church’s position that life is sacred from conception until natural death. That is what is happening today as science advances…step-by-step…new technology like ultra-sound allows us to see into the womb…DNA proves the baby is a unique person because the baby has a unique DNA that is a combination mom and dad’s. The argument that the baby doesn’t become human until some point in it’s development yet to be determined simply doesn’t wash…particularly when one considers late term abortion.

Setting aside the religious aspect it is impossible to escape science which has found that human life begins at conception. If you leave that zygote alone, baring accidents, disease or an act of nature…that zygote will grow into a baby. The idea that an acorn is not yet an oak tree is the same thing…it will be baring accidents, disease etc. It cannot be logically argued that abortion doesn’t kill a baby or pulling up an oak tree sapling doesn’t kill an oak tree anymore that one can successfully argue that water isn’t wet.

There can be no compromise regarding abortion…it is murder pure and simple.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

and one more time …

**'This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Deuteronomy 30:19 **

 

[CMatt25]

Jeremias 1:5
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

The notion of ensoulment was abandoned in Midieval times as knowledge of biology advanced. The above scripture reference supports the Catholic Church’s position that life is sacred from conception until natural death. That is what is happening today as science advances…step-by-step…new technology like ultra-sound allows us to see into the womb…DNA proves the baby is a unique person because the baby has a unique DNA that is a combination mom and dad’s. The argument that the baby doesn’t become human until some point in it’s development yet to be determined simply doesn’t wash…particularly when one considers late term abortion.

Setting aside the religious aspect it is impossible to escape science which has found that human life begins at conception. If you leave that zygote alone, baring accidents, disease or an act of nature…that zygote will grow into a baby. The idea that an acorn is not yet an oak tree is the same thing…it will be baring accidents, disease etc. It cannot be logically argued that abortion doesn’t kill a baby or pulling up an oak tree sapling doesn’t kill an oak tree anymore that one can successfully argue that water isn’t wet.

There can be no compromise regarding abortion…it is murder pure and simple.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

As someone not identified to the Catholic faith nor who speaks for the Catholic Church on the forum I also look at Exodus 21: 22-23 which tells me the loss of a fetus is not equal to the death of a woman. The punishment for loss of a fetus was less than if the mother suffered loss of her life these verses tell me. God bless you too. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

and one more time …

**'This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Deuteronomy 30:19 **

Irrelevant to the topic. Sure we believers all agree God desires for us and our born children to choose eternal life with HIm. But this verse speaks not a thing to me about the unborn.