Pro-choice Catholics

[guanophore]

But how can the policy of "shut your mouth, don't think, and take it" help build faith?  I find it insulting.

As well you should. One has to wonder why you are perpetrating such a strange idea??

I think you will find that the Church no where has such a policy. It is a figment of your imagination.

I have doubts about some Catholic teachings, and if I just ignore it, and follow blindly, how does that help me?

Not at all helpful, and contraindicated.

I know myself, and if I don’t find out, I will rebel big time. Or act one way, and think another (which is what I’m doing now). I know I can’t live that way for too much longer. My mom always said I would hate my brain as I got older.

Your mom is right that a thinking and inquiring mind always struggles with matters of faith. This is part of God’s creation of us, and why we need the guidance of the Church.

I’m not trying to act like a smart aleck, but I need to concrete proof other than “the Church says so”.

This is great that you are not trying to act like a smart aleck.

However, as CMatt has pointed out, concrete proof is not always available, which is why they call it “faith”.

I have an appointment to speak to a priest later today, and I’m going to lay it out there. His advice will probably be “leave, so I donMt have to deal with you”.

This is a strange expectation. One wonders how you came by it.

By the way, I’m not acting against Catholic teaching. On the surface I look like a devout Catholic, and I would never advise to go against Catholic teaching.

This is also a good thing.

This is the essence of faith seeking understanding. Do, even if you don’t understand, and desire and pursue wisdom in the doing.

 

[PRmerger]

But how can the policy of “shut your mouth, don’t think, and take it” help build faith? I find it insulting.

Well, CS, you rightly ought to be insulted if that were what the CC was telling you to do.

Fortunately, there is not a single encyclical that declares such an obnoxious concept.

I have an appointment to speak to a priest later today, and I’m going to lay it out there. His advice will probably be “leave, so I donMt have to deal with you”.

If this is indeed his advice I recommend leaving (actually, running as fast as you can!).

(Leaving that priest, rather. Not the Church! )

By the way, I’m not acting against Catholic teaching. On the surface I look like a devout Catholic, and I would never advise to go against Catholic teaching.

Perhaps the better attitude would be to say to oneself, “I do not understand Catholic teaching on this, and I ought to consider the possibility that I am the one who is wrong, not the Church.”

Think of it as how you would react if Jesus himself were telling you something you didn’t understand or agree with. What would be your posture in this case?

(There is a term for this called* fides quaerens intellectum*. Faith seeking understanding.)

 

[guanophore]

Pregnancy is traditionally dated at the date of the last menstrual period. That’s true.

Yes because we have no way of knowing when the egg was released or fertilized. But most ovulation cycles do not result in pregnancy, so to call that period “the first week of pregnancy” is a bit of a misnomer. It is only considered that way in cases where pregnancy actually results, and only then to err on the side off inclusive possibilities.

 

[guanophore]

you can type “Fetal Development” to the google search engine.

Of course I can (though there would be little need since I teach this class at the college here). My point was that you are to cite your source so your reader can go to it. You can cut and paste the website, or reference the book.

I do not make this up at all.

I was teasing. I know you arent’, but it can appear that way when you don’ t cite your source.

 

[Eric_Peter]

Sorry guanophore
next time i will cite.
Due to lack of credibility of every website i’ve gone through (written by don’t know who, no author, no author’s qualification on the subject), i have to go through many websites and judge myself. So, it has room for a little inaccurary.
I honestly think asking a professor, tutor or teacher (such as guanophore) is better since he/she got access to more credible source such as reference book.

 

[catharina]

Sorry guanophore
next time i will cite.
Due to lack of credibility of every website i’ve gone through (written by don’t know who, no author, no author’s qualification on the subject), i have to go through many websites and judge myself. So, it has room for a little inaccurary.
I honestly think asking a professor, tutor or teacher (such as guanophore) is better since he/she got access to more credible source such as reference book.

Absolutely positively, citations are important.

Nonetheless - I really like your posts!

 

[Personanongrata]

The Catholic Church provides more assistance for unwed mothers than all other private organizations combined. The network of CPCs across the country also provides help for unwed mothers. Our CPC , for example,offered parenitng classes, financial assistance and scholarships for women who decided to keep their child.

Can you tell us what services NARL., Planned Parenthood ,et al provide women who “choose” to not kill their child?

Sounds very good, but I noticed that you didn’t provide a source / link for any of your statements.

As for PP – I am a Clinic escort at a local PP, where we help women get in for their prenatal services. I haven’t been called in over a year cause things have settled down. But the last time a pro-Life group picketed the place, a group of us showed up and waited inside the door for anyone who was afraid to walk to their car. What’s funny is that, abortions are not done at this location.And yes I know that for a fact.

 

[estesbob]

Sounds very good, but I noticed that you didn’t provide a source / link for any of your statements.

As for PP – I am a Clinic escort at a local PP, where we help women get in for their prenatal services. I haven’t been called in over a year cause things have settled down. But the last time a pro-Life group picketed the place, a group of us showed up and waited inside the door for anyone who was afraid to walk to their car. What’s funny is that, abortions are not done at this location.And yes I know that for a fact.

Catholic PP escort? How sad.

 

[beafedor]

Sounds very good, but I noticed that you didn’t provide a source / link for any of your statements.

As for PP – I am a Clinic escort at a local PP, where we help women get in for their prenatal services. I haven’t been called in over a year cause things have settled down. But the last time a pro-Life group picketed the place, a group of us showed up and waited inside the door for anyone who was afraid to walk to their car. What’s funny is that, abortions are not done at this location.And yes I know that for a fact.

I’m sad for you. PP sends these women to places to get their abortion all the same and they take advantage of their distress all the same. They sell them those contraceptive pills/devices/morning after pill that can cause early abortion by keeping the created life from implanting in the uterine wall. So yes there is abortion counseling and medical abortion there, much need for prayer and real options to help those women. In what kind of neighborhood is that Planned Parenthood facility? Isn’t it in a poor area serving a majority of Black and Latino low income women?

 

[beafedor]

Hello again Beafedor. I apologize for the delay but I had some other things tonight and you indeed gave me much to chew on. After rereading your post I am not so certain language is the barrier you deem it to be. You do quite well. But I will try to be as concise as I can. Yet if I am too lengthy in my words or get too political I trust you will understand and forgive me. This is an issue to me trancending beyond faith and religion in the democracy of plural beliefs in which I live. But here goes.

Thanks for taking time to answer my post and thanks for the virtual hug. My comments are in bold characters.

“In the US women have the right to make reproductive decisions without government interference within the first trimester.”
My friend if you were identifying as a Catholic, here I would say: “Stop Pelosing yourself!” This language doesn’t help me to understand why you support abortion. Same thing at the end of your post when you say: “…It is not a black and white, cut and dried simple issue to me so again I apologize if it was too lengthy or poltical.”
Here we differ. To me it is very simple: if abortion is evil, why support it?

And by the way, abortion in the US just like in my country is available throughout the 9 months of pregnancy, it happens in abortion clinics and public hospitals as well as in OB/Gyn offices but few people are aware of that. I identify as a pro-life activist. I speak publicly and take action. Do you know any pro abortion activists? I can tell you that they don’t fight for limited or rare abortion. Their motto is: “abortion on demand and without apology”. They don’t want any ban on birth-abortion, no restrictions, no parental notifications.

**I’m glad that you voted for parental notification. **

Do I believe a scared pregnant woman is of cool state of mind? Need for abortion? What does it solve? Has it helped women? Improved their lives? I do not walk in their shoes to know for all women. Why not listen to abortion stories? If you want to support something, don’t you want to know what you are supporting? Do me a favor and read or watch a few “choice” testimonies silentnomoreawareness.org/ I’m the RC in Greenville, SC so you can read the transcript of my story as well.

Do I think mothers are happy to terminate? No quite the contrary. I believe women agonize deeply over their decisions. They consult their doctors.
As you might know, contraception and abortion are very very lucrative businesses. Health care professionals too often lie to women and give inaccurate information about the development of their baby, the abortion procedure and so on. See for yourself and watch a few undercover videos of Live Action liveaction.org/

Many I believe pray and pray and pray.
I don’t know about that. I always hear stories of emotional quick decisions to fix a problem pregnancy.

As a man I have contemplated and prayed a great deal simply to arrive at my decision in regards to postions to take. So I can imagine the wrestling a woman must go thru in her own conscience, the contemplation, the prayer, all must surely go far beyond mine.

I’m glad that you are praying about it and I hope that you will find out more about abortion with the information that I have provided and maybe pray more about it. I’m praying for you too.

Regarding boyfriends I believe they need to step up to the plate and be men. My heart breaks for women whose boyfreinds do as you say. True men will stand by their women. Join them in prayer and in support of whatever decision it is the woman ultimately makes.

Unfortunately, this is a result of the “sexual revolution” and the “My body, my choice” mantra. Anybody who supports abortion legislation I’m afraid, has a responsibility in enabling this culture.

Finally I think it’s great if one is able to open a room if a woman feels she can choose to carry to term for adoption, what a blessing! And I most certainly with every fiber of my being, believe not only Christians but people of good will everywhere, should support programs to aid the poor. The homeless. The sick. It is frankly a big problem I see in society today. Too many IMHO cry for resources to come only from the individual and the Church. And when government offers a role to pick up the slack they cry foul. Yet it is some of these programs which could help to make abortion rarer. Government aid for the mother after birth whether it be in food, clothing, shelter, medical care, child care, all are needed. Too many it is my belief want to cut social programs while giving tax breaks to the weathiest among us. To those far wealthier than the most of us. They cry deficits but seem to want to balance the budget on the backs of those most in need. And my heart cries.

It has always been the role of the Church to take care of the poor. I have a spare room and bathroom in my house and yes we will adopt an “unwanted child” if that’s God’s will.

God bless you my friend. I truly pray with all my heart for His peace to always, always be with you. :hug1: Your friend, CMatt
I wish you the peace of the Lord too and will be praying for you. Béa

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Sounds very good, but I noticed that you didn’t provide a source / link for any of your statements.

priestsforlife.org/

priestsforlife.org/missionary/index.htm

silentnomoreawareness.org/

priestsforlife.org/africanamerican/index.htm

rachelsvineyard.org/

gospeloflife.com/

priestsforlife.org/prayercampaign/

lifeontheline.com/

All above organizations, in one way or another, touch the lives of those affected by abortion, and help prayerfully spread the message of the pro-life movement to those who are looking for information. All are either founded or sponsored by the Church, Who never waivers in Her zeal to protect the dignity of every human life, from conception to natural death. In the end, the pro-life cause will triumph because our Lord has conquered sin and death.

As for PP – I am a Clinic escort at a local PP

Have you heard the testimonies of former abortion clinic workers who finally saw what kind of business they were part of? Set aside it’s dirty back alley dealings and money profit, abortion does nothing to help the life of the baby (who is killed), the mother (who is always emotionally, physically or spiritually affected–and in some cases, killed herself), or the father (who gains an easy way out but loses personal responsibility and respect for a woman’s body). It is a lose-lose no matter how you would like to look at it. I will pray for you to see that.

 

[catharina]

priestsforlife.org/

priestsforlife.org/missionary/index.htm

silentnomoreawareness.org/

priestsforlife.org/africanamerican/index.htm

rachelsvineyard.org/

gospeloflife.com/

priestsforlife.org/prayercampaign/

lifeontheline.com/

All above organizations, in one way or another, touch the lives of those affected by abortion, and help prayerfully spread the message of the pro-life movement to those who are looking for information. All are either founded or sponsored by the Church, Who never waivers in Her zeal to protect the dignity of every human life, from conception to natural death. In the end, the pro-life cause will triumph because our Lord has conquered sin and death.
Have you heard the testimonies of former abortion clinic workers who finally saw what kind of business they were part of? Set aside it’s dirty back alley dealings and money profit, abortion does nothing to help the life of the baby (who is killed), the mother (who is always emotionally, physically or spiritually affected–and in some cases, killed herself), or the father (who gains an easy way out but loses personal responsibility and respect for a woman’s body). It is a lose-lose no matter how you would like to look at it. I will pray for you to see that.

and from Abby Johnson’s new book, Chapter One
(Abby had worked for PP for her entire adult life.):

lifenews.com/2011/01/10/first-chapter-of-abby-johnsons-planned-parenthood-book-unplanned/

and from ncr, re abby, former Planned Parenthood director:

ncregister.com/blog/what-abby-johnson-saw-at-planned-parenthood/

 

[beafedor]

beafedor:
I apologize because I misused the quote button in my previous post. I wanted to comment CMatt25’s post and my comments are in bold character. Thank you to the friend who brought this to my attention. God bless you all!

 

[Personanongrata]

Catholic PP escort? How sad.

No, not really.

Have you been able to find those links to your sources yet???

 

[Personanongrata]

I’m sad for you. PP sends these women to places to get their abortion all the same and they take advantage of their distress all the same. They sell them those contraceptive pills/devices/morning after pill that can cause early abortion by keeping the created life from implanting in the uterine wall. So yes there is abortion counseling and medical abortion there, much need for prayer and real options to help those women. In what kind of neighborhood is that Planned Parenthood facility? Isn’t it in a poor area serving a majority of Black and Latino low income women?

Mostly white, black and some Latino. But all low income. Almost all are unemployed.

 

[guanophore]

I apologize because I misused the quote button in my previous post. I wanted to comment CMatt25’s post and my comments are in bold character. Thank you to the friend who brought this to my attention. God bless you all!

You did not misuse the quote button. If you want to separate out the paragraphs you have to cut and paste the quote codes. There is a tutorial available, or you can send me a PM.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

This much is appropriate for us to observe, and to note. In fact, it is our responsibility to do so.

He might meet yours, since you seem to feel free to determine this apart from having the full facts of the matter. But as a Catholic, it is inappropriate for you to pander this opinion about as if it were an appropriate action to do so.

Our opinions in such matters are to be focused on our intertecessory petitions.

You views on this matter are specious at best. If someone is acting outside of well known Catholic doctrine (and what is better known than Catholic doctrine on abortion) as Fr. Drinan did with his public and heretical views, it isn’t difficult to conclude that he is a heretic. Ealier in the forum the definition of heresy/heretic was discussed… If you have a different definition, I’m all ‘eyes’.

Fr. Drinan fits the accepted defiinition of a heretic to a tee. Also relevent Canon law was discussed in an earlier post re: abortion vs excommunication ‘Latae Sententiae’ style. Perhaps you didn’t see these since you just joined the discussion, Father Drinan’s voting record is a matter of public record. There is no question he was publicly pro-abortion including partial birth aboriton. Only God can finally judge Fr. Drinan but we all can look at his public support of abortion and condemn it accordingly.

Finally, I find it ironic and amusing that you are confortable judging me…for judging and Fr. Drinan, an obvious heretic.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[catharina]

You views on this matter are specious at best. If someone is acting outside of well known Catholic doctrine (and what is better known than Catholic doctrine on abortion) as Fr. Drinan did with his public and heretical views, it isn’t difficult to conclude that he is a heretic. Ealier in the forum the definition of heresy/heretic was discussed… If you have a different definition, I’m all ‘eyes’.

Fr. Drinan fits the accepted defiinition of a heretic to a tee. Also relevent Canon law was discussed in an earlier post re: abortion vs excommunication ‘Latae Sententiae’ style. Perhaps you didn’t see these since you just joined the discussion, Father Drinan’s voting record is a matter of public record. There is no question he was publicly pro-abortion including partial birth aboriton. Only God can finally judge Fr. Drinan but we all can look at his public support of abortion and condemn it accordingly.

Finally, I find it ironic and amusing that you are confortable judging me…for judging and Fr. Drinan, an obvious heretic.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

You missed the point.
As Catholics, we are not free to label anyone a “heretic.”
Without judging you, it’s easy to see that you are
willing to do the labelling. As Catholics, we are NOT to do that.
If Rome called Drinan “heretic” then we could too.
Rome didn’t do that. So we can’t and don’t.

 

[guanophore]

You views on this matter are specious at best. If someone is acting outside of well known Catholic doctrine (and what is better known than Catholic doctrine on abortion) as Fr. Drinan did with his public and heretical views, it isn’t difficult to conclude that he is a heretic. Ealier in the forum the definition of heresy/heretic was discussed… If you have a different definition, I’m all ‘eyes’.

I have no quarrel with the definition of heresy. My quarrel is with your self claimed ability to judge the heart, mind, and soul of another individual.

The Apostles taught that we should not even do this for ourselves. It is usurping God’s job.

We can identify heresies, and identify problematic behavior, but it is beyond our purview to label others as heretics.

Fr. Drinan fits the accepted defiinition of a heretic to a tee.

I understand that this is your opinion, and that you believe this. However, not only is it not your place to judge this, but a bad witness about Catholicism to do so.

Also relevent Canon law was discussed in an earlier post re: abortion vs excommunication ‘Latae Sententiae’ style. Perhaps you didn’t see these since you just joined the discussion,

I read it. I don’t think this was about whether or not he excommunicated himself…

Father Drinan’s voting record is a matter of public record. There is no question he was publicly pro-abortion including partial birth aboriton.

No question at all.

Only God can finally judge Fr. Drinan but we all can look at his public support of abortion and condemn it accordingly.

It is risky to “condem”, but I do agree that we can identify certain immoral activities as being wrong. What we cannot do is condemn a person as heretical just because they appear to engage in behaviors we consider heretical.

Finally, I find it ironic and amusing that you are confortable judging me…for judging and Fr. Drinan, an obvious heretic.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

I apologize if I came across judging you. I am taking issue with your behavior.

I am assuming you are misbehaving because you don’t know any better, and one cannot be judged on the basis of ignorance.

 

[PRmerger]

Ah but you miss my point. While I don’t understand why the Church has not acted more forcefully doesn’t in any way diminish the Fr. Drinan’s views or the fact they conflict with Catholic doctrine. Since he persistantly has supported abortion he meets the definition of a heretic and in my opinion he is one.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

As you yourself observe, there’s certainly much we can’t and don’t know about Fr. Drinan and why the Church has not labeled Fr. Drinan a heretic.

for reasons I do not know or probably not understand

Perhaps there’s some data that’s not available to you that only the Church is privy to?

This is akin to someone looking into my family and saying, “I wonder why they don’t discipline their daughter for ______” What my DH and I know and say to our daughter is none of anyone’s business, especially if she’s repented of ____, which, of course, no one would know.