Pro-choice Catholics

[century153]

Anyone who intentionally kills a human being is considered a murderer. That goes for the abortionist, as well as the woman.

Incidentally, it used to be an argument was proferred by the pro-aborts that it wasn’t a baby, just a clump of cells.

Now, I’m hearing a very, very chilling argument: some pro-aborts will acknowledge quite frankly (as science cannot be denied) that this is indeed a human life in the mom’s womb, but—

and here’s the chilling part that was sown in the depths of hell…

they argue that it doesn’t really matter that it’s a human being; the woman’s right to abort supercedes all.

How sad for us as a species. I mean for the whole human race. America is not the only country that allows abortion – one by one they are all succumbing.

 

[Toomey1979]

No, Toomey, you are mistaken.

Unlike an abortion, which is not a “treatment” in any way, shape, or form, treatment is recommended for complicated pregnancies.

My point is that valuing life does not “force” anyone to do anything. The woman is not “forced” to carry the child by a pro-life postion. She has the opportunity to lay down her life for another who is also innocent.

How noble of you to demand the death of a woman for your religious views.

 

[CMatt25]

Or … representing (at least) a majority of Americans,
to date - and of so-called “American Catholic” politicians.

If Rence represents the majority, then she represents American Catholics. Not so called American Catholics. Does the Pope not consider Catholics, Catholic?

 

[Toomey1979]

This is a very good argument as to why Catholics do not use the Bible alone.

The Bible also says that tattoos are immoral. Thankfully, the Church has provided us with guidance as to how to interpret this.

I just thought it was interesting to note that the views about the beginning of life rest entirely on very recent papal pronouncements. And everybody knows papal prouncements change over time

 

[PRmerger]

It was on one of the 3 Conscience vs Church threads in moral theology which were deleted by the mod.

Right.

I really knew that, though.

Just like you really knew why people were mistaking you for a Catholic.

But, again, thank you for removing the designation from your posts.

 

[PRmerger]

Not if one does not believe all truth is found where you believe it is.

Well, if Truth cannot be found in God’s Word, then we have been left to flounder in chaos and confusion.

 

[PRmerger]

. And everybody knows papal prouncements change over time

What category of “papal pronounements” are you referring to?

Do you consider PopeB16’s book “Jesus of Nazareth” a papal pronouncement, Toomey?

 

[Toomey1979]

What category of “papal pronounements” are you referring to?

Do you consider PopeB16’s book “Jesus of Nazareth” a papal pronouncement, Toomey?

Sure why not. Popes have been known to reverse other popes. It happens.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

A clump of dividing cells is hardly a baby.

Abortionists, abortion clinic workers and directors say this. And we all know they are deluding themselves and the poor souls who walk into their clinics. For business. To take advantage of a pregnant woman in need.

But you are smarter than this.

Yes, not only does SCIENCE say life begins the moment of conception, but the CHURCH says life begins the moment of conception–because the Church God founded does not go against natural law or GOD’s law.

There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. Period. No debate.
*- Fritz Baumgartner, MD *
Scientist - Physician - Surgeon

Those who are pro-life are just that: PRO-LIFE. We don’t value the life of the child over the life of the mother. We fight for the rights of every life equally! It is not up to us to decide who must die and who must live. And what about all the unborn women who do not have a “choice” to care for their body?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Sure why not. Popes have been known to reverse other popes. It happens.

This much is certain: popes shall never error on matters of Faith and Morals.

 

[PRmerger]

Sure why not. Popes have been known to reverse other popes. It happens.

Yes. I’ve heard it said that Pope JPII said that Mt Pinotubo was going to erupt. Pope B16 said it turns out it didn’t erupt.

That, in now way, diminishes the authority of the Magisterium.

Or did you think that the popes were infallible when they state, “It might rain today!”?

 

[CMatt25]

I wear the badge of a liberal proudly and I believe my Lord and Savior was a liberal. Letters? To me I see letters in the Catholic faith.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, lets not discuss. If you don’t know that complications from pregnancies can kill both mother and** child,** I can’t help you. Go ask one of the doctors at your job.

Ah. I didn’t think you had any evidence to this. Otherwise you would provided it the first 1, 2 or 3 times I asked.

Interesting that you use the term “child”. Quite curious!

Note: that complications from pregnancies exist, there is no doubt. That a OB can predict that the mom is going to die unless she has an abortion…not so much.

 

[Toomey1979]

Abortionists, abortion clinic workers and directors say this. And we all know they are deluding themselves and the poor souls who walk into their clinics. For business. To take advantage of a pregnant woman in need.

But you are smarter than this.

Yes, not only does SCIENCE say life begins the moment of conception, but the CHURCH says life begins the moment of conception–because the Church God founded does not go against natural law or GOD’s law.

There is no more pivotal moment in the subsequent growth and development of a human being than when 23 chromosomes of the father join with 23 chromosomes of the mother to form a unique, 46-chromosomed individual, with a gender, who had previously simply not existed. Period. No debate.
*- Fritz Baumgartner, MD *
Scientist - Physician - Surgeon

Those who are pro-life are just that: PRO-LIFE. We don’t value the life of the child over the life of the mother. We fight for the rights of every life equally! It is not up to us to decide who must die and who must live. And what about all the unborn women who do not have a “choice” to care for their body?

Good for you. If you get raped or are facing complication from pregnancy that will kill you I support your rigfht to choose whatever you want to do.

All kidding aside, you guys know that you are never going to actually illegalize abortion in all circumstances, right? Even in the most Catholic South American countries abortion is legal in some circumstances. So when are you gonna be satified. Making abortion illegal in most circumstances or you guys in the fight until every last abortion (life of mother/ rape etc) is illegal? Just curious.

 

[Toomey1979]

Ah. I didn’t think you had any evidence to this. Otherwise you would provided it the first 1, 2 or 3 times I asked.

Interesting that you use the term “child”. Quite curious!

Note: that complications from pregnancies exist, there is no doubt. That a OB can predict that the mom is going to die unless she has an abortion…not so much.

Yeah but at least admit that one can predict if she can or even probably die. Knowing that, why risk it if you you the child will be lost anyway?

 

[CMatt25]

Didn’t realize you are now calling yourself Christian.
It’s news to me. Thanks for the update - I guess.

There may be lots you don’t realize about me outside a private internet forum.

 

[guanophore]

The catholic church has always taught slavery was acceptable. It was the whole Vatican II rights of man phenomenom that changed all that. The point is that the Church changes its attitude toward things. I’m not surprised at what the church teaches. Just hope that change it in some respects…yet again.

Clearly you have a lot to learn.

I don’t know exactly and because of that I wouldn’t force a woman to remain pregnant at the expense of her own life.

Toomey, this may come as a shock to you , but you don’t have the power to “force a woman to remain pregnant”. A woman who is pregant is in a natural state of child bearing.

Before modern abortive methods and law, all women who became pregnant accepted their pregancies as a normal function of sexual activity. I am sure there were many that regretted this result, but no one “forced them to remain pregnant”. They just accepted that this was their natural state until the birth of the child.

I find it a very interesting twist of words, though. And I am reminded of a pre-election speech in which a presidential candidate was asked what he would think if his daughter got pregnant. He responded “I certainly don’t think she should be punished with a child”. I was appalled. I had never heard of a child being considered a “punishment” before. It seems like your arguement comes from the same value system.

 

[Toomey1979]

Yes. I’ve heard it said that Pope JPII said that Mt Pinotubo was going to erupt. Pope B16 said it turns out it didn’t erupt.

That, in now way, diminishes the authority of the Magisterium.

Or did you think that the popes were infallible when they state, “It might rain today!”?

Sorry, I don’t think popes are infallible period.

 

[catharina]

If Rence represents the majority, then she represents American Catholics. Not so called American Catholics. Does the Pope not consider Catholics, Catholic?

You’re saying that rence represents the majority.
Your opinion or the result of polls or a personal revelation?

 

[guanophore]

I think different stages of development merits a different assesment of the situation. I don’t think aborting a 9 month fetus is any different than killing a newborn. But do I believe the same thing about a zygote that hasn’t been implanted…no. There are extremists on both sides of the issue. Sadly our church has taken the opposite extreme.

Why is this “sad”?