Pro-choice Catholics

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ishii said:
(my bold italics)

Yes. We know what the law says. What we are saying is that the law is wrong. Do you agree with the law or disagree? When you say a woman has “control over her body” someone asks you: “but what about the unborn child?” to which you respond robotically: “the woman has consent” … Why the inability to actually address the question? We are asking you, “doesn’t the baby deserve some consideration?” Your answers seem disengenuous and evasive.

Ishii
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I’m sorry that I appear to be frustrating you. That’s not my intent. I agree with the law that the woman deserves, does and should have rights of autonomy over her own body and has the right to make decisions regarding her body, especially in the cases of rape and when the woman’s life is in peril. That’s the answer to your questions. It should be self explanatory. There is nothing hidden in the reply. I hope that makes it more clear 🙂
 
Rence said:
I’m sorry that I appear to be frustrating you. That’s not my intent. I agree with the law that the woman deserves, does and should have rights of autonomy over her own body and has the right to make decisions regarding her body, especially in the cases of rape and when the woman’s life is in peril. That’s the answer to your questions. It should be self explanatory. There is nothing hidden in the reply. I hope that makes it more clear 🙂
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So these rights trump the right to life of a small human. 😦
 
Rence said:
Of course she has that right, and women exercise that right every day. 🤷
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You are correct that she has a legal authority in this country, at this time, to disregard the basic human rights of the life within her.

Howeverr, the baby is a separate person, with it’s own body. That is why it is disingenuous when the arguement is made that she has “rights over her own body”. Because in this case, those rights involve another person.

It is not dissimilar to a case of Siamese twins, whose existence is connected. they both have the right to their own bodies, but their choices will affect another person.
 
guanophore said:
There is an essential distinction here, Rence. Abortion is the removal of a baby from the mother’s womb for the purpose of terminating the pregnancy. This is different than the loss of a pregnancy as a consequence of needed medical treatment.
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The sacrifice a woman makes by refusing treatment that would save her life should be consensual, and not something that is forced upon a woman. No one can determine the correct and appropriate medical course of action for a woman but her doctor. No one needs to interfere in that relationship.
guanophore said:
No, Rence. Legality is not 'all that matters". Eternal truth matters a lot more than what is “legal”.
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It doesn’t matter to you because you don’t want it to be legal. But it matters to women who want to retain their reproductive rights and retain their rights as patients. It sure does matter.
guanophore said:
Yes, we can say that for sure. Regardless of her medical condition, she can choose to have no treatment. She can choose to risk her own life, or she may choose to risk her own and the life of her child by not accepting an abortion.
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And she can choose to have treatment. That’s her right as a woman with rights and as a patient.
guanophore said:
But this is never a morally acceptable choice. If a procedure takes place to correct a medical problem that results in unintended loss of the pregnancy, it is not an abortion.
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I agree that the Catholic Church forbids abortion for any and all reasons, and that Catholics need to adhere to the Truth of the Church. However, people who are not Catholic do not share the same views as the Catholic Church and are not held to the same laws even if we Catholics know they are the right laws, and most people make exception for instances when the woman’s life is in danger, unlike the Catholic Church. One can’t force Catholic law on a woman, it has to be her choice to make. And the fact that women are making these choices means they don’t consent to have their medical rights stripped from them, rather they consent to the procedures done.
guanophore said:
Yes, but medical treatment is not an abortion. An abortion is the forceable removal of the fetus from the womb for the sole purpose of terminating the pregnancy. A woman seeking medical treatment does not have that sole purpose.
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Abortion is a medical procedure. And you are very right: a woman seeking medical treatment does not have the sole purpose of having an abortion, however, sometimes as you know, pregnancies are ended to save the life of the mother.
guanophore said:
This is not a 'different perspective". This is Catholic.
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I completey agree with you 🙂
guanophore said:
It is also Catholic to recognize that the fetus is not the woman’s own body, but a separate life within her for which she has moral responsibility.
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I completely agree with you on that too 🙂
guanophore said:
No. The vast majority of women who must lose their babies in the course of treating the complications of pregnancy are devastated by the loss.The LAST thing they want is to lose their baby. You see, intention makes all the difference.
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Yes, it does make all the difference. Intention is very important to consider. Of course they don’t want to lose their babies.
 
century153 said:
Dear Subscribers – just checkin in – … I see now that or rather I believe that it is impossible or near impossible to come to some agreement on the subject of pro-choice vs pro-life. This is why in a secular country we have elected officials who write the laws for us – for ALL the people. Unfortunately, all the people do not share in our belief system – meaning the RC Church. But, I have to say that the fact that there is **a law called “pro-choice” and not “pro-abortion” tells me that its about “choice” basically. ** The choice can go either way – no one can force anyone to have an abortion. Now, that doesn’t mean someone cannot be coerced into it-- that’s another moral issue altogether. The bottom line is that in America today not everyone has the same moral ideas as everyone else. There has to be a guideline. We, as Catholics who are pro-life have the moral duty to lobby for change in the law and to do whatever we can to prevent abortion under the law. As Catholics with a different view towards the law we need to respect each other because no one can get into anyone’s head to absolutely know for sure why he or she would choose to support the pro-choice law. And, BTW, as I said before, most of us we have not read and studied the law called “pro-choice” based on Roe vs Wade. We have elected officials who have sworn to do so according to the people of the US and to stand for ALL the people. Therefore, for now, I repeat what I said before: we need to do what we can under the law to fight for what we believe in. That is all we can do. And have respect for other human beings who believe differently and not put them down and curse them by calling them heretics. We are all here seeking the Truth, whether you believe that or not. :twocents:
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I’m relieved that you understand another person’s perspective without having to share it, or even agree with it. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, just understand that I believe differently than they do, and have reasons for my own beliefs. Thanks for that 🙂
 
“Hundreds of doctors have a signed a statement that puts the situation in perspective. The statement reads, “There is never a situation in the law or in the ethical practice of medicine where a preborn child’s life need be intentionally destroyed by procured abortion for the purpose of saving the life of the mother. A physician must do everything possible to save the lives of both of his patients, mother and child. He must never intend the death of either.””

Source
 
… and that is indeed the truth.
what some are calling “Catholic” law
was until quite recently, the law for ALL
in the nation. to pretend that abortion is fine
because it is now legal is an abomination.

to allow it to stand as “law” without protest is horrific.
to pretend that one must accept it is outright evil.
 
JimG said:
“Hundreds of doctors have a signed a statement that puts the situation in perspective. The statement reads, “There is never a situation in the law or in the ethical practice of medicine where a preborn child’s life need be intentionally destroyed by procured abortion for the purpose of saving the life of the mother. A physician must do everything possible to save the lives of both of his patients, mother and child. He must never intend the death of either.””

Source
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Yeah, but you could line up another 100 physicans across the room who will state that there are cases, though rare, in which a woman’s life is in danger due to the physiological demands of the pregnancy on her body, and that an abortion would alleviate those stressers and save her life and health.
 
Rence said:
I completely agree with you, but they are both sanctioned and legal medical procedures.
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The last time I had a cyst removed, it wasn’t followed by years of guilt, shame and 20 years of depression.
 
Rence said:
Yeah, but you could line up another 100 physicans across the room who will state that there are cases, though rare, in which a woman’s life is in danger due to the physiological demands of the pregnancy on her body, and that an abortion would alleviate those stressers and save her life and health.
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I supposed that you are not familiar with this line that I have heard from both post-abortive Moms and Dads: “My baby died on that day and a part of me died too”.

Also, what about faith, prayer, trust in God? Miracles happen. I’ve witnessed a few in my life time.
 
guanophore said:
Clearly, you have more faith in your civil authority than your divine authority.

Not really, CMatt. Alll of my discussions with you begin and end with your denial that we can know the Truth, that the Truth resides in the Church, and that w are responsible to follow the Truth.
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That is what you think.

That’s the problem with our discussions. We differ on the difference between faith and knowing with certainty.
 
my deepest sympathy.
it’s a plague of biblical proportions, as in:

“what’s new? oh yes, i’ve got it - let’s kill the babies!”

makes my blood run cold.
absolutely can not understand why ANYONE would work to justify it.
 
Rence said:
I’m so sorry :hug1: I will pray for your healing.
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Thank you for your compassion and you got that right: after an abortion, a woman needs healing. That’s because it is not like having your tonsils removed. It’s rather like paying a doctor to have your baby exterminated. Knowing what abortion does to women (and men), I could never ever support it and I will always fight to educate people about it and to help pregnant women in distress finding solutions that we can all live with.
 
beafedor said:
I supposed that you are not familiar with this line that I have heard from both post-abortive Moms and Dads: “My baby died on that day and a part of me died too”.
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Yeah, I have, and I can appreciate it too.
beafedor said:
Also, what about faith, prayer, trust in God? Miracles happen. I’ve witnessed a few in my life time.
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That’s my point. We can’t force another person, against her will, to have the same trust we have in God, or to believe in miracles. Trust in God isn’t something you can force someone to have. It should be easy for a Catholic, or rather a practicing Catholic, to refuse any treatment that requires terminating a pregnancy. And even if it’s not easy, it’s at least known and understood that there is no choice in the matter if one wants to remain in communion with the Church. But we can’t enforce the Church’s laws on someone who is not receptive to them.
 
guanophore said:
No, CMatt. What will happen at that time is that you will be called to account for your refusal to form your conscience according to the Truth that He has revealed to you through the Church.
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That may be if your faith turns out to be completely the one truth.
 
beafedor said:
Thank you for your compassion and you got that right: after an abortion, a woman needs healing. That’s because it is not like having your tonsils removed. It’s rather like paying a doctor to have your baby exterminated. Knowing what abortion does to women (and men), I could never ever support it and I will always fight to educate people about it and to help pregnant women in distress finding solutions that we can all live with.
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You should continue to do just that 🙂
 
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