Pro-choice Catholics

[Rence]

Rence misdiagnosis of ectopic is actually common. It happened to me twice…TWICE. I actually was looking up another case where methotrexate was given to a completely misdiagnosed ectopic and the baby was lost.

Why would you advocate a pro-life doctor giving an abortificient? What about the rights of a pro-life physician to not participate in an abortion?

Do you not understand we are talking about human life?

I understand that you were misdiagnosed twice, but the Church itself doesn’t require waiting for treatment once a diagnosis is made because it assumes the diagnosis is correct, as it should be. If the diagnosis is incorrect that’s the fault of the physician, not the woman, who has the right to choose a procedure appropriate for the diagnosis.

Prescribing methotrexate is a santioned and legal procedure for tubal pregnancy, just as rmoving the fallopian tube is a sanctioned and legal procedure for tubal pregnancy. Except that the methotrexate saves the fallopian tube, and is less invasive than the surgical procedure.

The woman can go to another physician if she’s not in an emergency situation, and IIRC, someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but methotrexate is used before there is a medical emergency and before rupture. It’s purpose is to flush the embryo out of the tube before the tube ruptures and causes hemorrhage. If her doctor refuses to give it, and it’s not an emergency, and she’s not in immediate danger, she can go elsewhere to get it.

Yes, I understand we are talking about human life, even if that human is a woman.

If the diagnosis is incorrect, the woman, if she chooses to have her fallopian tube removed is still wronged because she has undergone an unnecessary medical procedure unwarranted considering the error in the diagnosis. All the way around, a misdiagnosis is the fault of the physician, and the woman is not accountable for treatments based on it. She can’t diagnose herself after all.

 

[catharina]

*“For the question remains, do women want abortion? Not like she wants a Porsche or an ice cream cone. Like an animal caught in a trap, trying to gnaw off its own leg, a woman who seeks abortion is trying to escape a desperate situation by an act of violence and self-loss. Abortion is not a sign that women are free, but a sign that they are desperate.”
*
Truer words were never spoken. Please take time to read this article by a Catholic woman who used to be “Pro-choice” and explains why she has changed her mind.

ABORTION: WOMEN’S RIGHTS AND WRONGS by Frederica Mathewes-Green
ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/RTWRG.TXT

wonderful article.
i’ve saved it.
thank you.

 

[Tigg]

Good one, Jharek -

And here, from Evangelium Vitae comes this:

It is precisely in the flesh of every person that Christ continues to reveal himself and to enter into fellowship with us, so that rejection of human life, in whatever form that rejection takes, is really a rejection of Christ. (104)

 

[catharina]

Good one, Jharek -

And here, from Evangelium Vitae comes this:

**
It is precisely in the flesh of every person that Christ continues to reveal himself and to enter into fellowship with us, so that rejection of human life, in whatever form that rejection takes, is really a rejection of Christ**. (104)

how very beautiful, tigg.
i thank you so very much.

 

[Rence]

“Let it be done to be according to Your Word”…she chose to obey God because she had faith in Him and believed in Him

 

[catharina]

“Let it be done to be according to Your Word”…she chose to obey God because she had faith in Him and believed in Him

all children are created in the image and likeness of God.
ALL children. we are not free to disregard that fact.

 

[Rence]

Thanks but as my previous posts have said, it goes both ways. If one consents to a pregnancy willingly due to their belief in God and their faith in God, then how can we force someone else to be pregnant or not be pregnant based on, and citing, our belief and faith in a God that the pregnant woman doesn’t have any faith or belief in? We can’t, because it works for us, but not for someone who doesn’t share those beliefs and faith. God would never force someone to do something He asked because He gifted us with free will. That’s why Christ Himself said, when the message of the disciples is ignored or rejected we are directed specifically to shake the dust from that home or town off our feet, don’t even stay and eat there, and go on to the next one and teach to those who will listen and are receptive to the Word. Christ said nothing about enforcing Church laws by force, or by imprisonment, or by coersion.

 

[estesbob]

From todays Liturgy of the Hours. I though it was appropriate for this thread:

How long, O Lord, shall the wicked,
how long shall the wicked triumph?
They bluster with arrogant speech;
the evil-doers boast to each other.

They crush your people, Lord,
they afflict the ones you have chosen.
They kill the widow and the stranger
and murder the fatherless child.

And they say: “The Lord does not see;
the God of Jacob pays no heed.”
Mark this, most senseless of people;
fools, when will you understand?

Can he who made the ear, not hear?
Can he who formed the eye, not see?
Will he who corrects nations, not punish?
Will he who teaches men, not have knowledge?

From Psalm 94

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I understand that you were misdiagnosed twice, but the Church itself doesn’t require waiting for treatment once a diagnosis is made because it assumes the diagnosis is correct, as it should be. If the diagnosis is incorrect that’s the fault of the physician, not the woman, who has the right to choose a procedure appropriate for the diagnosis.

Prescribing methotrexate is a santioned and legal procedure for tubal pregnancy, just as rmoving the fallopian tube is a sanctioned and legal procedure for tubal pregnancy. Except that the methotrexate saves the fallopian tube, and is less invasive than the surgical procedure.

The woman can go to another physician if she’s not in an emergency situation, and IIRC, someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but methotrexate is used before there is a medical emergency and before rupture. It’s purpose is to flush the embryo out of the tube before the tube ruptures and causes hemorrhage. If her doctor refuses to give it, and it’s not an emergency, and she’s not in immediate danger, she can go elsewhere to get it.

Yes, I understand we are talking about human life, even if that human is a woman.

If the diagnosis is incorrect, the woman, if she chooses to have her fallopian tube removed is still wronged because she has undergone an unnecessary medical procedure unwarranted considering the error in the diagnosis. All the way around, a misdiagnosis is the fault of the physician, and the woman is not accountable for treatments based on it. She can’t diagnose herself after all.

But her baby would be alive, if the pregnancy was a non-ectopic.

Sigh. it is troublesome to me that you seem to believe the embryo is a human life, but are unwilling to think it deserves to have its right to life respected.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Thanks but as my previous posts have said, it goes both ways. If one consents to a pregnancy willingly due to their belief in God and their faith in God, then how can we force someone else to be pregnant or not be pregnant based on, and citing, our belief and faith in a God that the pregnant woman doesn’t have any faith or belief in? We can’t, because it works for us, but not for someone who doesn’t share those beliefs and faith. God would never force someone to do something He asked because He gifted us with free will. That’s why Christ Himself said, when the message of the disciples is ignored or rejected we are directed specifically to shake the dust from that home or town off our feet, don’t even stay and eat there, and go on to the next one and teach to those who will listen and are receptive to the Word. Christ said nothing about enforcing Church laws by force, or by imprisonment, or by coersion.

So in a nutshell only babies who belong to mothers who are practicing Catholics have the right to life…the rest I guess are out of luck.

 

[PRmerger]

“Let it be done to be according to Your Word”…she chose to obey God because she had faith in Him and believed in Him

Wow. Do you just understand what you just said?

This is exactly why abortion is soooo horrific. Why it is so diabolical. Its message to God is exactly the opposite of Mary’s fiat.

 

[Rence]

But her baby would be alive, if the pregnancy was a non-ectopic…

She has no way to know that the diagnosis is incorrect because the assumption and the expectation is that the diagnosis is correct…and she’d still have a fallopian tube and no invasive surgical procedure.

 

[RosaryFan]

Thanks but as my previous posts have said, it goes both ways. If one consents to a pregnancy willingly due to their belief in God and their faith in God, then how can we force someone else to be pregnant or not be pregnant based on, and citing, our belief and faith in a God that the pregnant woman doesn’t have any faith or belief in? We can’t, because it works for us, but not for someone who doesn’t share those beliefs and faith. God would never force someone to do something He asked because He gifted us with free will. That’s why Christ Himself said, when the message of the disciples is ignored or rejected we are directed specifically to shake the dust from that home or town off our feet, don’t even stay and eat there, and go on to the next one and teach to those who will listen and are receptive to the Word. Christ said nothing about enforcing Church laws by force, or by imprisonment, or by coersion.

Because it is a societal injustice to destroy innocent human life, that’s how!

 

[Rence]

Wow. Do you just understand what you just said?

Of course I do

This is exactly why abortion is soooo horrific. Why it is so diabolical. Its message to God is exactly the opposite of Mary’s fiat.

I agree with you. But to the person who doesn’t share our beliefs, they have the right to the medical intervention prescribed for them when they’re health is at risk, and they have the right to prevent a forced pregnancy. We can’t force them to believe in the Church’s authority. It has to be their choice.

 

[Rence]

At least they allow a woman the choice when her life is in danger. I’m grateful, for the sake of the woman, for that.

 

[PRmerger]

Sigh. it is troublesome to me that you seem to believe the embryo is a human life, but are unwilling to think it deserves to have its right to life respected.

Indeed.

I think I stated earlier that the pro-aborts argument that it was just a clump of cells was bad. But now, as the educated pro-aborts cannot deny the facts of science, they will grudgingly admit that it’s indeed a human life, but the woman’s rights over her own body supercedes anything and everything else.

The latter position is the most malevolent and poisonous of all positions.

It’s a human being, yes, but that doesn’t matter. There’s something even more important than that–my body.

Thus, those who proclaim that it’s a human being, even as it goes through the birth canal, but can be aborted at the whim of the woman, are the most poisoned.

 

[RosaryFan]

Of course I do

I agree with you. But to the person who doesn’t share our beliefs, they have the right to the medical intervention prescribed for them when they’re health is at risk, and they have the right to prevent a forced pregnancy. We can’t force them to believe in the Church’s authority. It has to be their choice.

So if someone doesn’t share my belief that it is wrong to murder a bank teller in order to get the money, then we should not impose our belief on that person, so it should be okay for him to murder the bank teller to get money?

Abortion is a violent act which takes the life of an innocent human being. Anyone with an interest in social justice should be outraged, regardless of their religious beliefs!

 

[PRmerger]

I agree with you. But to the person who doesn’t share our beliefs, they have the right to the medical intervention prescribed for them when they’re health is at risk, and they have the right to prevent a forced pregnancy.

A “forced pregnancy”? How is that different from preventing “forced” motherhood?

Your reasoning should logically promote that women who don’t want to be mothers anymore can kill their toddlers or teenagers, eh?

We can’t force them to believe in the Church’s authority. It has to be their choice.

No one is advocating forcing them to believe in the Church’s authority. Have you read me appeal to the Church’s authority for non-Catholics in this?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

She has no way to know that the diagnosis is incorrect because the assumption and the expectation is that the diagnosis is correct…and she’d still have a fallopian tube and no invasive surgical procedure.

:banghead:
But a dead baby Rence, come on, have you never heard of malpractice…giving methotrexate to a viable pregnancy, just for convenience of not having surgery.

 

[catharina]

So if someone doesn’t share my belief that it is wrong to murder a bank teller in order to get the money, then we should not impose our belief on that person, so it should be okay for him to murder the bank teller to get money?

Abortion is a violent act which takes the life of an innocent human being. Anyone with an interest in social justice should be outraged, regardless of their religious beliefs!

the logic of circular thinking.
i will not “impose” my morals on any one else.
if they are immoral - that’s their right!