Pro-Choice Catholics

[nickybr38]

Putting aside the knee jerk reactions and yes, sometimes, attacks… what is the best way to debate a pro-choice Catholic?

It seems as if to be pro-choice they simply discard Church teaching. But how can you ignore Church teaching and still call yourself Catholic?

The argument that myself and others have been making is simply that you cannot call yourself Catholic if you do reject Catholic teaching. It makes as much sense as calling yourself a cat when you’re really a dog.

But this argument seems ineffective.

How would YOU discourse with a pro-choice Catholic who dismisses Church teaching off hand?

 

[bzkoss236]

The best approach depends on their reasons, or what parts make them pro-choice, or as I’ve heard at times “Pro-life, with exceptions”.

If it’s a medical thing (life of the mother at risk), the best thing (IMO) is to show them that the baby being alive is never the issue. It is the baby being in a place that it isn’t supposed to be. So killing the baby isn’t the solution, it is either moving (or removing) the baby that is more medically relevant.

If it’s a rape thing, then it gets a bit more difficult, but you have to show that the baby is completely innocent, and killing innocents is wrong, and that the mother doesn’t have to go through it alone (counseling centers, etc.), and that the baby is a gift, regardless where it came from.

If they don’t think it is human, show that scientifically, it is human.

If they say it isn’t a person, show that murder has in its definition ‘human’ and not ‘person’.

Any other reasons you’d like me to cover. These are just quick suggestions and my opinion on what is best.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Putting aside the knee jerk reactions and yes, sometimes, attacks… what is the best way to debate a pro-choice Catholic?

It seems as if to be pro-choice they simply discard Church teaching. But how can you ignore Church teaching and still call yourself Catholic?

The argument that myself and others have been making is simply that you cannot call yourself Catholic if you do reject Catholic teaching. It makes as much sense as calling yourself a cat when you’re really a dog.

But this argument seems ineffective.

How would YOU discourse with a pro-choice Catholic who dismisses Church teaching off hand?

First of all, let’s not call them “pro-choice.” They are abortion supporters. And honestly, I don’t have much luck in discussing anything with abortion supporters. They invariably get hostile long before we have made any progress in discussing the issue. I don’t have anything to do with those who call themselves Catholic and yet support abortion. You know what they say about wrestling with a pig…

 

[Auntie_A]

Most " pro-choice" ideas begin with the issue that this is not a human life on its own, but attached to another life, its mother. They also state the dangers of our illegal abortion past and that we are now a “pluralistic” nation…etc.

If you can acknowledge those realities for a woman, while still remembering the sanctity of her child;

If you can acknowledge the dangers of illegal abortions, but stress that the dangers are still there, some more insidious, some more obvious like the recent case of the awful abortionist on trial;

If you can state that “pluralism” does not preclude fundamental laws for life, and that societies that have ignored and killed pre-born humans, disabled or disfigured humans, and weak and frail elders are societies that did not survive. Everyone seems to hate the reference to Nazis but Margaret Sanger was of that Nazi eugenicist mentality…

If you can tell them the stories of children who were born “unwanted” or as the result of rape, as they state their happiness to be alive;

If you can show them how our children are missing their aborted siblings and playmates and classmates–a generational epidemic;

If you can wake them up to the reality of what happens during an abortion and in all the years after an abortion to a woman (Google: “Silent No More”);

If you can tell them the stories of abortion doctors and nurses who had an awakening, you might be doing a very great deed for the world.

 

[LisaA]

I changed from being a pro abortion atheist to being pro life and then became Catholic. My mind was changed by science and understanding how my earlier ideas were completely inconsistent with both science and basic human rights.

I think one of the most important things to do is find out why they are pro abortion. Most are simply ignorant of fetal development. Others think that the unborn baby is “part of the woman’s body.” Or they think it’s ‘just tissue’

The point is to focus on the humanity of the unborn child. Most pro aborts are not evil, they are just ignorant. They would not want an innocent human being killed but they truly do not think of unborn as human beings. Thus you must find out why.

Many people do not understand that the unborn child has EVERYTHING a born child has, just smaller and not completely developed. You can point out that a baby or toddler is also not fully developed or full grown but he or she is still human. Ask them when an unborn baby becomes a human being. If they say when the baby is viable, then ask what about preemies and how they can be saved with a great deal of medical intervention. Is the preemie not human because he can’t breathe on his own? Also point out that there are many adults who are, like an unborn baby, completely dependent on others to care for them. A good example is the late Christopher Reeve. He could not breathe in his own. He could not eat on his own. He could not move without someone moving him. Was Christopher Reeve not human? Also people in comas are totally dependent on others. A good friend of mine was in a horrible car crash (hit head on when someone crossed the median). He was “dead” at the scene, revived and Life Flighted to a hospital. He was in a deep coma and doctors said unlikely he’d come out. In fact they wouldn’t set his badly broken arm because they were not sure he’d last the day. He was in the coma for several weeks, totally dependent upon nursing care. Was he not human because he was not able to care for himself? The good news is that he woke up one day, totally lucid and after a year of therapy resumed normal activities. He was a human before, during and after the coma.

Other posters have come up with other approaches as well but I think it’s very important to find out why they think what they think. Now realize that there are some who realize and acknowledge that unborn babies are human. However their real philosophy is “might makes right” and the only rights that are considered are the pregnant woman’s “choice” whether or not to maintain the pregnancy. If you get one of those, just pray for her heart to be changed because that is the attitude of the militant feminist types.

Lisa

 

[vz71]

The best approach depends on their reasons, or what parts make them pro-choice, or as I’ve heard at times “Pro-life, with exceptions”.

Indeed I have found many that claim ‘pro-choice’ that are simply buying into the popular culture without really examining where they really stand.

It is best to determine their position with certainty before engaging in debate.

 

[meltzerboy]

First of all, let’s not call them “pro-choice.” They are abortion supporters. And honestly, I don’t have much luck in discussing anything with abortion supporters. They invariably get hostile long before we have made any progress in discussing the issue. I don’t have anything to do with those who call themselves Catholic and yet support abortion. You know what they say about wrestling with a pig…

Couldn’t there be SOME pro-choice Catholics who believe that other women and their families might be guided by THEIR OWN religious and moral teachings which may differ from those of Catholicism. IOW, these Catholics might never have an abortion themselves but they still respect the right of others to choose to have one if that choice is governed by religious principles. Is this situation impossible?

 

[PetrusRomanus]

Putting aside the knee jerk reactions and yes, sometimes, attacks… what is the best way to debate a pro-choice Catholic?

With the Catechism. No need for commentary or further discussion.

 

[bzkoss236]

Couldn’t there be SOME pro-choice Catholics who believe that other women and their families might be guided by THEIR OWN religious and moral teachings which may differ from those of Catholicism. IOW, these Catholics might never have an abortion themselves but they still respect the right of others to choose to have one if that choice is governed by religious principles. Is this situation impossible?

This is the thing, it is larger than religion. It is a social issue, not a religious one. The killing of innocent people is never right, nor is it a right of a person to have the ability to directly kill an innocent human being for any reason.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

Couldn’t there be SOME pro-choice Catholics who believe that other women and their families might be guided by THEIR OWN religious and moral teachings which may differ from those of Catholicism. IOW, these Catholics might never have an abortion themselves but they still respect the right of others to choose to have one if that choice is governed by religious principles. Is this situation impossible?

I suppose there could be some Catholics who would never commit armed robbery, but wouldn’t see anything wrong if others did.

If something is objectively wrong, it’s wrong for everyone. Period. It’s not a matter of taste or opinion or open to subjectivity. It’s always wrong and that is a universal (Catholic) truth. Just like eating cardboard isn’t an alternative form of food is true for everyone, despite their differing opinions.

 

[meltzerboy]

This is the thing, it is larger than religion. It is a social issue, not a religious one. The killing of innocent people is never right, nor is it a right of a person to have the ability to directly kill an innocent human being for any reason.

I believe freedom to practice one’s religion is also a social issue. Torah Judaism requires abortion in certain circumstances when the mother’s life or health are endangered, and has leniencies in cases of rape and incest. Quakerism also makes allowances for abortion based on its religious principles.

 

[meltzerboy]

I suppose there could be some Catholics who would never commit armed robbery, but wouldn’t see anything wrong if others did.

If something is objectively wrong, it’s wrong for everyone. Period. It’s not a matter of taste or opinion or open to subjectivity. It’s always wrong and that is a universal (Catholic) truth. Just like eating cardboard isn’t an alternative form of food is true for everyone, despite their differing opinions.

I’m not talking about differing opinions but religious teaching that has a moral rationale.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

I’m not talking about differing opinions but religious teaching that has a moral rationale.

I don’t mean to be un-PC here, but any religion that has a moral rationale that allows the the slaughter of millions of people, is severely flawed in that area of teaching and in morality. They have a right to their beliefs but a line has to be drawn somewhere to protect the lives of others.

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t mean to be un-PC here, but any religion that has a moral rationale that allows the the slaughter of millions of people, is severely flawed in that area of teaching and in morality.

It does NOT allow the slaughter of millions of people as in abortion on demand. In the cases I mentioned, abortions are rare, but in certain instances required and, in others, permitted.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

It does NOT allow the slaughter of millions of people as in abortion on demand. In the cases I mentioned, abortions are rare, but in certain instances required and, in others, permitted.

Although perhaps those specific cases may be rare, worldwide and over the centuries I’m sure it amounts to millions.

In any case. even one is too many.

 

[LisaA]

I believe freedom to practice one’s religion is also a social issue. Torah Judaism requires abortion in certain circumstances when the mother’s life or health are endangered, and has leniencies in cases of rape and incest. Quakerism also makes allowances for abortion based on its religious principles.

Yikes Meltzerboy, perhaps you believe we should be free to practice the child sacrifices in the Hebrew Bible as part of our religion? Or for a social event?

Catholicism is VERY clear on what is called a consistent life ethic…from conception to natural death. As you know from our many debates during the election, this is NOT NEGOTIABLE as are some other Catholic teaching. It is considered an intrinsic evil every single time. There are actions and actors and implements that can work for evil or good. For example you are anti gun. But a gun can also be used for good. An abortion can never be used for good.

Remember the thread is not about abortion but about CATHOLICS who claim to be pro-choice. How do we approach our brothers and sisters who do not understand our faith?

Lisa

 

[Julian0404]

The “choice” part of pro-choice is simply the choice to choose to murder the “fetus” (which is latin for “baby” ).

What argument can be effective to convince someone who has already embraced the position that the 'serial killing" of fetuses is both “ok” and somehow will be accepted by GOD when they stand before HIM on their day of judgment?

The above position is unreasonable, so therefore a reasonable argument does not exist that will “be chosen” as truth by those who already hold to pro-choice.

However, what will move a few of them is when you translate the “choice” into the visual - graphic - pictures of the murdered fetuses, so that they can now translate the latin “fetus” into the visual truth of the “body of a baby”.

If a pro-choice person can view those terrible graphic pictures and still hold to supporting the serial killing of babies, then their hearts have been hardened as was Pharos’s and we can only call on the HOLY SPIRIT to save them - they are beyond our words, but not our prayers.

 

[meltzerboy]

Yikes Meltzerboy, perhaps you believe we should be free to practice the child sacrifices in the Hebrew Bible as part of our religion? Or for a social event?

Catholicism is VERY clear on what is called a consistent life ethic…from conception to natural death. As you know from our many debates during the election, this is NOT NEGOTIABLE as are some other Catholic teaching. It is considered an intrinsic evil every single time. There are actions and actors and implements that can work for evil or good. For example you are anti gun. But a gun can also be used for good. An abortion can never be used for good.

Remember the thread is not about abortion but about CATHOLICS who claim to be pro-choice. How do we approach our brothers and sisters who do not understand our faith?

Lisa

Lisa, so you’re saying there is NO WAY a Catholic can be pro-choice in the strict sense of understanding, but not agreeing with, other religious views held by women and their families regarding abortion. If one is Catholic, one MUST disrespect and deny people’s decisions to have an abortion who are NOT Catholic and follow their own religious principles. Is that the Catholic position?

BTW, I am NOT anti-gun. I’ve stated that law-abiding citizens should have the right to protect themselves and their families. However, I am in favor of enforcing tough gun restrictions in all states. But that’s another issue which we’ve already discussed ad nauseum.

 

[Rence]

Putting aside the knee jerk reactions and yes, sometimes, attacks… what is the best way to debate a pro-choice Catholic?

It seems as if to be pro-choice they simply discard Church teaching. But how can you ignore Church teaching and still call yourself Catholic?

The argument that myself and others have been making is simply that you cannot call yourself Catholic if you do reject Catholic teaching. It makes as much sense as calling yourself a cat when you’re really a dog.

But this argument seems ineffective.

How would YOU discourse with a pro-choice Catholic who dismisses Church teaching off hand?

You can’t get any ground with them because you’re not speaking the truth from the beginning - which is bound to make any further argument ineffective. Once you have a poor beginning you can’t go forward. Saying that you can’t call yourself Catholic if you’re pro-choice (or in any opinion that varies with a Church teaching) is simply false and in itself is against Church teaching. The Church teaches: Once someone is Baptised Catholic, their souls is indelibly marked and they are forever Catholic regardless of what others, or of what they, think. That’s why your argument is ineffective: you’re spewing off something that is contrary to Church teaching in an effort to fight something that is also contrary to Church teaching. Try the truth to teach the Truth and go from there.

 

[april32010]

You can’t get any ground with them because you’re not speaking the truth from the beginning - which is bound to make any further argument ineffective. Once you have a poor beginning you can’t go forward. Saying that you can’t call yourself Catholic if you’re pro-choice (or in any opinion that varies with a Church teaching) is simply false and in itself is against Church teaching. The Church teaches: Once someone is Baptised Catholic, their souls is indelibly marked and they are forever Catholic regardless of what others, or of what they, think. That’s why your argument is ineffective: you’re spewing off something that is contrary to Church teaching in an effort to fight something that is also contrary to Church teaching. Try the truth to teach the Truth and go from there.