Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?

[iamrefreshed]

I acquired my position after reading Practical Ethics for a second time. In addition, I did not only become pro-choice after reading Practical Ethics, it convinced me that I should stop eating certain food products too. (And I did not stop eating those items after learning about the recent global food crisis, but because I was interested in reducing suffering.)

It amazes me that people can fool themselves in this way. You claim you want to reduce suffering yet you will kill someone?

 

[vern_humphrey]

It amazes me that people can fool themselves in this way. You claim you want to reduce suffering yet you will kill someone?

Cognitive dissonance – trying to hold two such incompatable ideas in the same head causes cracks and potholes.

 

[bilop]

Well, if the aborted child had a “cure” for the upcoming energy crisis…

I do not see any available technology that will adequately sustain civilization. I do not see any point to discuss eugenics now although I USED to support pre-implantation genetic diagnosis and human genetic engineering. I wonder if it is possible to be “pro-life” once we run out of oil. I wonder how will a Malthusian catastrophe be averted, but I do understand that I am going off topic to vent my frustration with the current state of the world.

sigh

Why would you worry about such a thing?

Nuclear power is non-exhaustible. It can be used to produce liquid hydrogen as a fuel by splitting the oxygen from water molecules. We also have sufficient coal reserves for hundreds and hundreds of years.

The world will never run out of energy. It may get more expensive, but we will adapt.

No one has a right to ever increasing standards of living, but they do have a right not to be murdered.

God Bless

 

[ribozyme]

No one has a right to ever increasing standards of living, but they do have a right not to be murdered.

God Bless

No, but people have a right not to live in poverty and not suffer. I suppose some reasons of aborting fetuses are justified.

Well, until you realize that life begins at conception, I am willing to compromise with you and only ban abortion past 8 weeks.

Ok fine, but I want a managerial state too.

 

[wabrams]

No, but people have a right not to live in poverty and not suffer. I suppose some reasons of aborting fetuses are justified.

Since you deem it alright to kill an unborn baby b/c it might keep someone in poverty, do you think it’s alright for that same person to kill their boss for not giving them a raise so they won’t have to be in poverty?

 

[ribozyme]

Since you deem it alright to kill an unborn baby b/c it might keep someone in poverty, do you think it’s alright for that same person to kill their boss for not giving them a raise so they won’t have to be in poverty?

Well, fortunately murder isn’t necessary. All we need are labor unions and think tanks such as the Economic Policy Institute to fight for decent wages.

And no, a welfare state is suppose to prevent poverty too.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Since you deem it alright to kill an unborn baby b/c it might keep someone in poverty, do you think it’s alright for that same person to kill their boss for not giving them a raise so they won’t have to be in poverty?

Or to be more efficient and cut out the middleman – kill a concenience store clerk for the contents of the cash register.

 

[wabrams]

Well, fortunately murder isn’t necessary. All we need are labor unions and think tanks such as the Economic Policy Institute to fight for decent wages.

And no, a welfare state is suppose to prevent poverty too.

Oh, but you do believe it’s ok to kill an unborn child to prevent poverty?

 

[ribozyme]

Well, you use “child,” “baby.” I just use “fetus.”

 

[hasikelee]

Well, you use “child,” “baby.” I just use “fetus.”

The most accurate term to use is pre-born human, as the debates do not comonly occur over one documented instance, but rather the entire concept of abortion, which in America is legal up to 9 months.

A less accurate term, but one still more accurate than fetus is embryo, as the majority of humans are killed during the embryonic stage in America.

The term child is vague, but can still be validly used in an argument as it designates which human is being killed.

The term baby is one of endearment which has many different definitions. Baby is a term typically given to the human after birth. It also has strong connotations for all who participate in the debates, so baby is probably the least accurate term to use.

 

[mapleoak]

No, but people have a right not to live in poverty and not suffer.

And you deem yourself the arbiter of whether to allow someone to live in poverty and not suffer or to kill them to prevent them from living in poverty? How much money would you say you need before someone becomes qualified to make that decision?

 

[Dameedna]

I support abortion, but I’m not sure why this topic is every raised, since the OP of such topic is not usually interested in Answers, but in arguments. But just in case they are seeking genuine answers…

I do believe that life is very precious. By that I mean all life, not just human life. Life is precious to me, because it took an incredibly long time to get here, through an incredibly labourious process, and is such an unbelievable miracle. I think it should be preserved as much as we possibly can.

Now, abortion is a situation that I consider to be unique in and of itself. I do not support captial punishment, I do support euthanasia, and I do support a “just” war(though that’s a slippery slope).

I won’t get into the other “life” debates as specified above, but for me, each situation needs to be looked at, for its individual merits/lackthereof. Let me make this very, very clear to those that are interested. I DO NOT BELIEVE there is one set of absolute rules that apply to every given situation. This is often a big difference between me, and the pro-life crowd.

Abortion involves one life, living off another. One body, being reliant on another. The fetus, is not aware that it exists, and does not during early gestation feel pain. The mother, is aware she exists and does feel pain.

I pick the human, who is self-aware over the one that is not. I recognize it is not the infants fault, and that it is not the choice I would prefer to be made for that infant.

But, that is my choice.

There are many reasons why a person may want an abortion. There are all the big ticket items, such as rape, extreme poverty, and damaging health toward the mother.

I won’t get into those.

The area that I think a lot of people are MORE affected by, is abortion occuring in societies, and for individuals that have no apparent reason to do so. They can afford the child. They could have afforded contraception, they could have abstained(IE they weren’t raped). It is a tough one.

I support abortion up to 3 months, and longer if medically necessary.

I think that abortion should only follow councelling and I think that women should very clearly know what abortion actually IS. There is nothing more devastating, than to think you are getting rid of a collection of cells, only to find out that your baby was almost viable.

Many, MANY abortion clinics agree, there is way too much secrecy around abortion and not enough clarification of what it is.

There are many more “elements” of the discussin I could get into, but these are the main ones.

 

[mapleoak]

Well, fortunately murder isn’t necessary. All we need are labor unions and think tanks such as the Economic Policy Institute to fight for decent wages.

And no, a welfare state is suppose to prevent poverty too.

So we don’t need abortion if we have ‘think tanks’ and forceable decent wages. Until then are you saying it is okay to shoot the store clerk?

 

[Dameedna]

“Farm animal”. Not hard to support abortion if one can lower the dignity of women to that level, even if just in discussion.

Their point was, they didn’t want to be reduced to that indignity.

Then maybe you should have considered that this is the CATHOLIC answers forum.

Plenty of “catholics” do actually support abortion regardless of the official stance on it, including every catholic friend I have , except one. The OP was asking this on a Catholic forum and wanted responses. Some of those responses, will not be religiously motivated obviously and some will.

 

[mapleoak]

I support abortion, but I’m not sure why this topic is every raised,

It is to get a better idea of the logic and rationalizations that are most common to the pro-choice mindset in order to be more effective in the pro-life mission.

since the OP of such topic is not usually interested in Answers, but in arguments. But just in case they are seeking genuine answers…

And just in case the poster is being sincere with this post, we will give it some credence and take note of some of the concerns. I will take a different approach and try to answer your concerns without arguing since you assert that is what I do. Let me know how I did.

I do believe that life is very precious. By that I mean all life, not just human life. Life is precious to me, because it took an incredibly long time to get here, through an incredibly labourious process, and is such an unbelievable miracle. I think it should be preserved as much as we possibly can.

Yes, very good points. In addition it can be pointed out that not just human life is precious, but especially human life.

Now, abortion is a situation that I consider to be unique in and of itself.

This is so very true. It is unique in several different ways. Human beings are killed in very gruesome ways unlike most other forms of murder. They are killed before they ever even get to see the light of day. They are killed while completely indefensible and vulnerable. They don’t get to choose to die, but someone else self empowers themself to choose whether another should die…

I won’t get into the other “life” debates as specified above, but for me, each situation needs to be looked at, for its individual merits/lackthereof.

And abortion is no exception. It can be analyzed and found to contain no merits and quite a lackthereof. For instance, someone is deprived of life against their will. The mother and father suffer post abortion mental maladies. Promiscuity and lack of responsibility becomes rampant. Marriages and families fall apart. Society degrades. and on and on.

Let me make this very, very clear to those that are interested. I DO NOT BELIEVE there is one set of absolute rules that apply to every given situation.

Quite correct. Each situation needs to be considered in its own right and the most appropriate action taken in any given case. The key word is ‘appropriate’ which would exclude morally indefensible actions such as killing innocent people, etc.

 

[mapleoak]

This is often a big difference between me, and the pro-life crowd.

And that difference can be easily vanquished by choosing to support innocent life rather than supporting ending it unjustly.

Abortion involves one life, living off another. One body, being reliant on another.

Yup. And then it goes on to end that reliance through the termination of the life of dependant person. Kind of like the scary situation that the welfare state would pose. Lots of weaker dependant people at the mercy of the strong.

The fetus, is not aware that it exists, and does not during early gestation feel pain.

Correct. It does not feel pain during the normal process of gestation. That is another reason abortion is so tragic. It takes this normal painfree gestation and then inflicts severe pain to the growing person in the abnormal process of being murdered.

The mother, is aware she exists and does feel pain.

Indeed the mother feels pain as well in spite of pain killers, and the emotional pain will quite possibly last the rest of her life.

I pick the human, who is self-aware over the one that is not.

And I pick those who are self-aware and call them to help protect those who are helpless.

I recognize it is not the infants fault,

Me too!

and that it is not the choice I would prefer to be made for that infant.

Me neither! And I would hope that the choice is never to kill someone who puts their very life in your arms.

But that is my choice. There are many reasons why a person may want an abortion.

Of course. Lots of people want things they shouldn’t have or are not entitled to.

There are all the big ticket items, such as rape, extreme poverty, and damaging health toward the mother.

I won’t get into those.

I won’t get into those either, since they are inignificant to the millions of aborted babies each year. They could be argued and refuted in their own right, but since we are not arguing in this reply, but rather being agreeable.

The area that I think a lot of people are MORE affected by, is abortion occuring in societies, and for individuals that have no apparent reason to do so. They can afford the child. They could have afforded contraception, they could have abstained(IE they weren’t raped). It is a tough one.

Yes, in these types of societies, it makes the vile act of abortion all the more henious. It only stands to reason that people would be MORE affected by an already grievous act.

I support abortion up to 3 months, and longer if medically necessary.

And since it is never medically necessary to kill someone, we can sigh relief.

I think that abortion should only follow councelling and I think that women should very clearly know what abortion actually IS.

Further if abortion were banned, we wouldn’t even have to worry about councelling. Instead we could show women the beauty of the living human being in their womb rather than a dead and mutiliated one.

There is nothing more devastating, than to think you are getting rid of a collection of cells, only to find out that your baby was almost viable.

Yeah, that would be very devasting, to know that you killed a real human being when you fooled yourself into thinking you were removing a lump of cells.

Many, MANY abortion clinics agree, there is way too much secrecy around abortion and not enough clarification of what it is.

That is amazing that even abortion clinic realize this. Giant posters work good. Think of what an effect that would have if abortion clinics would post large graphic pictures of what abortion really is next to their entryways.

There are many more “elements” of the discussin I could get into, but these are the main ones.

Now that was a nice agreeable discussion, free of any argument.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Well, you use “child,” “baby.” I just use “fetus.”

Well, what if someone choose to call you ‘fetus’?

 

[iamrefreshed]

Abortion involves one life, living off another. One body, being reliant on another. The fetus, is not aware that it exists, and does not during early gestation feel pain. The mother, is aware she exists and does feel pain.

I pick the human, who is self-aware over the one that is not. I recognize it is not the infants fault, and that it is not the choice I would prefer to be made for that infant.

But, that is my choice.

By your logic then it would be OK for a mother to kill her infant child because it is reliant on her?

Or because pain and self awareness are your criteria it would be OK to murder someone whose ‘self-awareness’ was lost?

How very Godlike of you.

 

[wabrams]

Abortion involves one life, living off another. One body, being reliant on another. The fetus, is not aware that it exists, and does not during early gestation feel pain. The mother, is aware she exists and does feel pain.

I pick the human, who is self-aware over the one that is not. I recognize it is not the infants fault, and that it is not the choice I would prefer to be made for that infant.

There is no concrete evidence the embryo doesn’t feel pain. We are no where near knowing exactly when the pain receptors develop and when sentience occurs.

There are many reasons why a person may want an abortion. There are all the big ticket items, such as rape, extreme poverty, and damaging health toward the mother.

So when you abort a baby after rape, would you not create 2 victims?

I support abortion up to 3 months, and longer if medically necessary.

There is no medical necessity to abort a baby, most especially after 3 mos. This is a big reason the late term abortion ban passed. No doctor or case could be found where it was medically necessary to abort a baby.

Many, MANY abortion clinics agree, there is way too much secrecy around abortion and not enough clarification of what it is.

Some how I don’t believe that, as I am sure it would significantly hurt their pocket books if all the truths of abortion came out.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Originally Posted by Dameedna
Many, MANY abortion clinics agree, there is way too much secrecy around abortion and not enough clarification of what it is.

Some how I don’t believe that, as I am sure it would significantly hurt their pocket books if all the truths of abortion came out.

So why are abortion clinics so adamantly opposed to giving ultrasounds to potential “clients?”

The $700 cost is BS – Arkansas Right to Life would fund an Ultrasound and technician at each abortion clinic in this state and not charge a penny for it, if the abortionists would permit it.