Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?

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So when you stand in judgement and the hundreds of thousands of dead because of Iraq, including pregnant women gunned down for sport by US paid Pinochet thugs are facing you, will your defense be ‘Yes, I supported that, but look at how I voted on abortion! Sure, it didn’t actually stop any abortions, and well, yeah, technically I voted in favor of some abortions but…’

:rolleyes:

How fortunate that your political truth and your spiritual truth are so perfectly aligned.
A) I’m honest about my reasons for voting for my candidates.

B) There are no candidates that align perfectly with my spiritual truth (i.e. the teaching of the Catholic Church).

C) I am voting based on my conscience, formed by Church teaching.

D) I will tell God that I voted the way I thought He would want me to vote.
 
First of all, you don’t have a perfect candidate.
Neither do you.
Yes, they do – when the election is over, and the pro-abortion candidate has won, the votes are all gone.
But they are not unnoticed. The losing candidate and his respective major party will certainly notice. The winning candidate and party will notice.
The intent is to save human lives!
Yes it is. But not at the expense of others that we will temporarily settle for their death sentences with our blessing.
Can you imagine looking at a pile of aborted children, and saying, “Well, I made my point – so what if the pile would be smaller if I had voted differently?”
No, I couldn’t say that. I would say “Well Lord, I voted in accordance with Your Church’s teaching, and do not presume to know why You allow abortion to continue. Only that You do hear the cry of the unborn and that You will not show Your wrath, but have mercy on us.”
What will you say? “Well, I made my point – the pile is no smaller, our country’s desenitization to the abortion continues to grow, but at least I can say the candidate I voted for was not perfect, so what do you expect?”
 
I really should inform the moderators that some previous posts must not be capable of being read. Hate to repeat, but from Priests for Life:

“As Pope John Paul II indicated regarding a situation where it is not possible to overturn or completely defeat a law allowing abortion, ‘an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality’(EV 73; also CPL 4).
Catholics must strive to put in place candidates, laws, and political programs that are in full accord with non-negotiable moral values. Where a perfect candidate, law, or program is not on the table, we are to choose the best option, the one that promotes the greatest good and entails the least evil.”

**Let’s see, now. Two presidential candidates support abortion on demand and oppose allowing individual states’ voters to vote on banning abortion in their states. Both favor partial birth abortion. Both are endorsed by Planned Parenthood and NARAL. Another presidential candidate, on the other hand, is opposed by those organizations as a “threat to choice”, opposes abortion with three very rare exceptions (one of which is not necessarily contrary to the Church’s teachings anyway) and would, if possible, allow states to vote on whether they would ban abortion completely or not. Some states would. No doubt about it. The “best option” seems pretty obvious to me. **
 
Hi mapleoak,

What does that have to do with my “hazarded guess” based on SoCalRC’s words (bolded and quoted) that he would be excited about a Democratic Party victory?
Sorry that didn’t come across clear. Your post was in response to Vern’s question:
“Then when the candidate who supports more abortion wins, and the one who wants less abortion loses, what do you say?”
*I was just responding to that also, but thought it fitting to come after your response.
 
Neither do you.
But I am not the one claiming I can only vote for a perfect candidate.

So I ask you – do you have a perfect candidate – a really perfect candidate? And if not, what will you do?
But they are not unnoticed. The losing candidate and his respective major party will certainly notice. The winning candidate and party will notice.
The only reason you can say they notice third party votes is to laugh at them. Third party voters – and their agendas – are routinely discounted in voter targeting.
Yes it is. But not at the expense of others that we will temporarily settle for their death sentences with our blessing.
How is saving lives “at the expense of others?”

If there were several children trapped in a burning building, and you could only save one, would you not save that one? Or would you walk on and say, “I couldn’t save one at the expense of the others?”
No, I couldn’t say that. I would say “Well Lord, I voted in accordance with Your Church’s teaching, and do not presume to know why You allow abortion to continue. Only that You do hear the cry of the unborn and that You will not show Your wrath, but have mercy on us.”
Except you didn’t vote in accordance with the Church’s teaching. This was posted earlier:
The following is from the USCCB’s document “Living the Gospel of Life”.
"But being ‘right’ in such matters [racism, poverty, hunger, employment, education, housing, and health care] can never excuse a wrong choice regarding direct attacks on innocent human life. Indeed, the failure to protect and defend life in its most vulnerable stages renders suspect any claims to the ‘rightness’ of positions in other matters affecting the poorest and least powerful of the human community.
 
I’d like to know how a party which supports abortion on demand throughout the 9 months of pregnancy and even is fighting laws against infanticide is reasonably aligned with the Church on any non-negotiable issues?
Racism is certainly reprehensible, but it is not as bad as child murder. I have always wondered how the state can police people’s irrational feelings by such laws. There is no way that laws against racism can change people’ beliefs or feelings. It certainly didn’t here in the US. Yes, the laws punished people for acting on them, but it didn’t get to the heart of the problem.
 
Hi mapleoak,

What does that have to do with my “hazarded guess” based on SoCalRC’s words (bolded and quoted) that he would be excited about a Democratic Party victory?
Because I gave no indication of excitement. I just fail to see the obvious moral distinction that you see between the two parties.

Neither embraces the “essence of the moral law” defined by the Church. Both embrace intrinsic evil. From a pragmatic point of view, the ‘pro abortion’ party has historically actually done better at reducing abortions, something you say matters to you.

Look at your reasoning. I must be conspiring with evil because I do not accept the inherent moral superiority of one group of self serving politicians over another, relying instead on measurable results and Church teaching…

You reasoning is based on a leap of faith, but what kind?
 
But I am not the one claiming I can only vote for a perfect candidate.
Neither am I.
So I ask you – do you have a perfect candidate – a really perfect candidate? And if not, what will you do?
No, since nobody is perfect. Supporting murder is not simply an imperfection. It is a black wart.
The only reason you can say they notice third party votes is to laugh at them. Third party voters – and their agendas – are routinely discounted in voter targeting.
Sure the winning candidate if it be the avowed pro-abortion candidate will laugh. The losing candidate will also notice and say “gee, I lost because I approved of killing a small segment of people!”.
How is saving lives “at the expense of others?”
Because it is saying it is acceptable to sacrifice the rape/incest babies even if ony temporarily, if it means that we will save the majority of babies.
If there were several children trapped in a burning building, and you could only save one, would you not save that one?
Yes.
Or would you walk on and say, “I couldn’t save one at the expense of the others?”
No because I would not be inflicting death nor approving of the death of the other one. Should a dice be flipped to see which child you should save?
Except you didn’t vote in accordance with the Church’s teaching. This was posted earlier:
Now you can point out to me where the Church has condemned voting either third party or abstaining. Further show where the Church says that refusing to be complicit with evil is actually being complicit with evil.
 
Because I gave no indication of excitement. I just fail to see the obvious moral distinction that you see between the two parties.

Neither embraces the “essence of the moral law” defined by the Church. Both embrace intrinsic evil. From a pragmatic point of view, the ‘pro abortion’ party has historically actually done better at reducing abortions, something you say matters to you.

Look at your reasoning. I must be conspiring with evil because I do not accept the inherent moral superiority of one group of self serving politicians over another, relying instead on measurable results and Church teaching…

You reasoning is based on a leap of faith, but what kind?
I’m only assessing your words, and assuming that you are logical and intelligent enough to know that your third party vote will help the Democrats. Since you have expressed a preference for the Democrats, it logically follows that you would be excited that they beat the Republicans. 🤷

Your initial response to my ‘excitement’ post was an anti-Republican screed, so you confirmed my reasoning…as Vern noted. Now, you are giving your version of a “pragmatic view” in support of the Democrats. What more is left to be said? You can try to deny your excitement if they win, but it won’t have much credibility with me.
 
I’d like to know how a party which supports abortion on demand throughout the 9 months of pregnancy and even is fighting laws against infanticide is reasonably aligned with the Church on any non-negotiable issues?
Racism is certainly reprehensible, but it is not as bad as child murder. I have always wondered how the state can police people’s irrational feelings by such laws. There is no way that laws against racism can change people’ beliefs or feelings. It certainly didn’t here in the US. Yes, the laws punished people for acting on them, but it didn’t get to the heart of the problem.
The Church lists nine broad non negotiable issues in voting. On some, like religious freedom, society’s protection of minors, modern forms of slavery, and socially just economic development, the democrats are seemingly closer to the Church’s position.

It is understandable to want to elevate abortion to special status, but having done so, why is it then logical to compromise on it? No major party candidate holds a position on abortion that the Church considers licit, all major party candidates have supported upholding Roe recently in their political careers.

I reject both, because they both embrace intrinsic evil and neither has demonstrated any effectiveness in promoting a pro-life agenda. I understand that others disagree, but I still push for a couple of things. First, don’t be dishonest about the true nature of what is being supported. One can argue that less legalized abortion is a better position, but it is dishonest to portray an intrinsically evil position for anything but what it is. In fact, doing so can make us complicant with said evil.

Second, don’t unfairly demonize one’s opposition to make one’s own position seem more just. I don’t mean to pick on you, but 3rd trimester abortions are already illegal in about 40 states, and the gov’s and state legislatures that passed those laws are almost evenly divided between the two major parties. If one is willing to vote for a candidate who supports abortion in cases like rape and incest, then one should be willing to grant some charity to Catholics whose consciences arrive at different levels of compromise, be they more permissive or, like me, more restrictive.
 
I’m only assessing your words, and assuming that you are logical and intelligent enough to know that your third party vote will help the Democrats. Since you have expressed a preference for the Democrats, it logically follows that you would be excited that they beat the Republicans. 🤷
I’m sure in a dittohead world, this is all very logical. But our ‘worlds’ are quite different.

Look at it from my point of view. Regardless of which party wins, there is no rational or historical reason to expect any significant change in abortion.

Waving a million babies around is just silly when there is no evidence that voting for, say, George Bush, saved one.

If Dems win big in Congress, or even two branches of government, then they will promote some evil (ex. stem cell research), but the GOP already compromises on many of those same issues. And the Dems might turn away from some policies I consider horrifically evil, like the torture and murder of detainees. So while it will not be the governance I want, it won’t be the moral armageddon you seem to view it as.

On the flips side, if , your beloved GOP loses big, then I am of a mind of at least 4 of the prominent voices in the GOP’s religious right wing - it could be a proper lesson in humility. Don’t preach transparency and ethics then achieve record corruption, don’t abandon all conservative values in your actual governance and continue to call yourself fiscally or socially conservative, and most of all, don’t try to pass off 11th hour political lip service as being legitimately committed to the pro life cause…

The motivation in politics is winning. If the only way to win with the pro life vote is to actually be pro life, then a party that pursues it might actually accomplish something when elected.
 
I’m sure in a dittohead world, this is all very logical. But our ‘worlds’ are quite different.
What is your fascination/obsession with Rush Limbaugh?? I rarely listen to the man. 🤷

Oh…and the rest of your post?
SoCalRC paraphrased:
blah…blah…blah…your beloved GOP…blah…blah…blah…I really want the Dems to win anyway…blah…blah…blah.
 
Mother Teresa of Calcutta said:

"America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe vs Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father’s role in an increasingly fatherless society.

It has portrayed the greatest of gifts-a child-as a competitor, an intrusion and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the independent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters.

The right to life does not depend, and must not be declared to be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or a sovereign."

-On the other hand-

In the Illinois Legislature in 2002, a present presidential candidate voted against a bill to require life-sustaining measures for babies who survive late-term abortions and are born alive “accidently”. Then, in 2003 he killed this measure in the Illinois Senate Health committee he chaired."

In defending his actions against the bill the Illinois senator said: "What we are doing here is to create one more burden on a woman and I can’t support that."
 
Leeta:

You claim that today’s legal abortion procedures are nothing more than back alley abortions as far as the mother’s safety goes. Poor infection control? Non-compliance on the part of the patient. Improper disposal of the products of conception? Illegal and utterly outrageous. Contracting any person other than a trained medical professional to perform the procedure as being “routine”? “Maiming as many mothers as possible”?! I am speechless at your baseless claims.

Have you ever stepped foot inside a women’s clinic where abortions are performed? I have, more than once. I can tell you that the picture you paint of the business of abortion (and, unfortunately, it is a business) is incendiary and ridiculous. When one resorts to exaggeration and rhetoric, the legitimacy of the point is compromised. Feel the way you feel about abortion, that is your right and your duty; but there is no need to dress it up in falsehoods.

Our newest government studies have consistently shown no association between induced and spontaneous abortions and breast cancer risk, according to the National Cancer Institute, U.S. National Institutes of Health. More inflammatory rabble-rousing on your part.

MIZER:

“Choice” is not an intrinsic evil. It is the right of every human being to live according to his or her values, conscience, needs. The consequences of the choices I make are mine to bear, not yours. Any woman can choose not to have an abortion. Surely you don’t mean to say that this choice would be intrinsically evil. And, yes, a woman’s decision to control her reproductive life by refusing to have sex with her partner during ovulation would be a choice, arrived at by the free exercise of her own judgment. This is how I understand choice. I believe all life decisions great and small are between the one choosing and his or her God. If I’m not the one making the choice, my opinion is moot. If you’re not the one making the choice, pray for the decision to be a wise one, but don’t interfere. You have no invitation to this inner sanctum. This is choice: the right to make an informed decision on any given issue, and the responsibility to accept whatever consequences arise from that decision.

Choice is bigger than abortion.

marietta
 
Leeta:

“Choice” is not an intrinsic evil. It is the right of every human being to live according to his or her values, conscience, needs. The consequences of the choices I make are mine to bear, not yours.

Choice is bigger than abortion.

marietta
I agree that choice is not an intrisic evil. But what one chooses might well be.

The consequences are not only to the mother. They are also those to another human being; the child being aborted. This is a good deal more serious than whether one chooses chocolate over vanilla.

Choice is indeed bigger than abortion. It also includes the choice to murder, to rape, to steal. Just because something involves choice does not mean all choices are morally equal.
 
When one resorts to exaggeration and rhetoric, the legitimacy of the point is compromised. Feel the way you feel about abortion, that is your right and your duty; but there is no need to dress it up in falsehoods.
On this I would wholeheartedly agree.
Our newest government studies have consistently shown no association between induced and spontaneous abortions and breast cancer risk, according to the National Cancer Institute, U.S. National Institutes of Health. More inflammatory rabble-rousing on your part.
This is also inarguably true.
“Choice” is not an intrinsic evil.
On this we must disagree. The principle you invoke is part of Catholic doctrine. For example
“Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.” - CCC 1776
However, in this context, ‘choice’ indicates chosing or not chosing an abortion. We Catholics believe we are part of an apostolic Church - that is, the pope and the bishops can teach in the name of Christ, whom we hold to be God. That authority teaches that abortion is always gravely immoral. That is, there is never a case where it is licit. Since it can never be licit, it is intrinsically evil.

This does not remove the concept of choice you present, a woman can choose to have an illegal abortion just as she can choose to not have a legal one.

It also does not deny that considerable hypocrisy is involved. Look at the debate here, there is fierce division on rather or not holding abortion as an absolute in voting is some form of ‘pro abortion activity’. Similiarly, some of folks here who most proudly profess to be pro life are also very quick to bring up theological hair splitting when it comes to difficult issues involving maternal health.

But the hypocrisy does not invalidate the teaching, it merely demonstrates that we are human. It also is a good example of why the Church explains that our faith is a coherent whole, not a collection of random teachings. Abortion in Catholicism is not best understood by itself, but in the context of the teaching it rests on.

Most humans value life. Certainly the will to maintain our own is very strong. And most normal people here would find the idea of, say burying an unwanted new born alive or strangling an old and feeble relative whose care was too burdensome reasonable. In fact, most of us would be repulsed by the idea.

But for the first millenia of the Catholic Church, both these were accepted practices among significant portions of the faithful. But the Church resisted both these practices, and in time rejecting them has become the norm. The Church rejected them for the same reasons we reject abortion and direct euthanasia at end of life today.

We believe that we are each a unique creation by God. Who can, and does, love us each infininately. That infinite value in the eyes of our Creator is a great equalizer. From our perception, there is a vast difference between infant and adult, youth and age, wealth and poverty, intelligience and stupidity, even ‘decent’ people from ‘bad’. But if we turn those into numbers (she is a .1, he is a .4, her mom is a .8, etc.) it still does not matter, because anything multipled by infinity is still infinity.

The distinctions we make are meaningless. Regardless of our stage of development or our current condition, we are all blessed with an inalienable right to life from God.

This does not mean that Catholics reject the idea that at some point in early development a fetus may not even be a human person, complete with a soul. Or that at some point at the end of life the soul may depart while the biological body still shows signs of, say, cellular life. In fact, our tradition holds that both these are quite likely true. But we do not know exactly when the fetus is infused with a soul or when, precisely the soul departs.

Since we do not know and since we place infinite value on each life, our teaching is to error to the extreme. We use the earliest discernable biological uniqueness (fertilized zygote) as the beginning and essentially the last discernable signs of biological life on our death beds.

This is does not make for an easy teaching, but it is a consistant one. My hope is that, in time, humanity will come to expand its understanding of life to the Church’s limits, just as it eventually came to appreciate the Church’s position on infanticide and the elderly over the first millenia.

Peace
 
I thought your position was an honest one, based on the current condition of your formed moral conscience? But somehow CCC 2478 or CCC 2481 do not apply?

Peculiar.
It doesn’t make my position dishonest (strange comment on your part), but, yes, I do sometimes commit the same sins as you. We are alike in that way I guess…peculiar. :cool:
 
I really should inform the moderators that some previous posts must not be capable of being read. Hate to repeat, but from Priests for Life:

"As Pope John Paul II indicated regarding a situation where it is not possible to overturn or completely defeat a law allowing abortion, ‘an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, **could licitly support proposals **aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality’(EV 73; also CPL 4)… The “best option” seems pretty obvious to me.
What proposals are being considered? I don’t think that reference is to be applied to a candidate in an election but is specific to a proposed action to limit abortion. That Doctrinal Note went on to include but not limited to:

A kind of cultural relativism exists today, evident in the conceptualization and defence of an ethical pluralism, which sanctions the decadence and disintegration of reason and the principles of the natural moral law.

As a result, citizens claim complete autonomy with regard to their moral choices, and lawmakers maintain that they are respecting this freedom of choice…

At the same time, the value of tolerance is disingenuously invoked…

The history of the twentieth century demonstrates that those citizens were right who recognized the falsehood of relativism, and with it, the notion that there is no moral law rooted in the nature of the human person, which must govern our understanding of man, the common good and the state.

– to temporal questions that God has left to the free and responsible judgment of each person. It is, however, the Church’s right and duty to provide a moral judgment on temporal matters when this is required by faith or the moral law.

Democracy must be based on the true and solid foundation of non-negotiable ethical principles, which are the underpinning of life in society.

Catholic involvement in political life cannot compromise on this principle, for otherwise the witness of the Christian faith in the world, as well as the unity and interior coherence of the faithful, would be non-existent.

…has reiterated many times that those who are directly involved in lawmaking bodies have a «grave and clear obligation to oppose» **any law **that attacks human life.

The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine.

Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ** gives him this task**, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.

When political activity comes up against moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation, the Catholic commitment becomes more evident and laden with responsibility.
 
Interesting post from another thread.

The Senate on Thursday passed a supplemental war funding bill that includes a provision that removes a disincentive to pharmaceutical companies to offer deeply discounted birth control to college health centers and certain non-profit family planning clinics, CQ Today reports. The bill also includes provisions preventing seven new Medicaid regulations from taking effect until April 1, 2009.

The drug pricing change is modeled after legislation (S 2347) introduced by Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) in November 2007 (Allen/Higa, CQ Today, 5/23). The cost of birth control at college clinics as well as about 400 community-based family planning clinics increased last year as the result of a change included in the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 (Daily Women’s Health Policy Report, 2/6).
Note: The “community-based family planning clinics” include Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics…RR

According to CQ Today, all Democrats present, as well as two independent and 25 Republican senators, voted in favor of the bill. The Senate passed a domestic spending amendment, which includes the Medicaid and birth control discount provisions, by a 75-22 vote (Higa, CQ Today, 5/23).

** Pretty telling. For all the Democrats, including the Senator from Illinois who introduced the contraception/abortion funding provision to begin with, it’s okay to fund the war they profess to oppose, as long as contraception and abortion are funded along with it. For the 25 Republicans, it’s okay to fund contraception and abortion as long as the war is funded along with it. President Bush threatens to veto it because of the contraception and abortion funding, but the bill is reported as being veto-proof.**
 
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