Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?

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vern humphrey:

The man who does not want to be a father may not have the right to kill his child; but with a willingness to accept whatever consequences may arise, he has the right to choose his actions.

marietta
Marietta:

The woman who does not want to be a mother may not have the right to kill her child; but with a willingness to accept whatever consequences may arise, she has the right to choose her actions.

Now…can you explain the difference between the man and woman’s choices? How is it that you accept that a man must have a willingness to accept the consequences of a child, but the woman does not?

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, unless you make the non-scientific determination that the human zygote/fetus is the equivalent of a cancerous growth. It is not…it is an unborn human child.
 
She is free not to engage in procreative activities – just as I am. Would you say if a man didn’t want to be a father, he should have the choice of having the mother forcibly aborted?
Extremely good point. I heard a kid in one of my classes argue this one time. A girl was saying that if she becomes pregnant, and doesn’t want a child, it should be her choice to abort the child. This kid said that he has to pay the 18 years of child support based on that same sexual encounter. The law allows for a woman’s easy way out of the situation, despite whether the man wants the child or not. Why is the same scapegoat action not available to men?

I know that the answer will be that the baby (or as abortionists call it, fetus) is part of the woman’s body, and it should thus be her choice.

However the man, if the child is not aborted, has to deal with 18 years of payment that he needn’t pay if the child is aborted. Shouldn’t he have the same lack of liability that is entitled to the woman?

I like this argument. As bad as it sounds, I don’t see a strict argument against it from a legal standpoint at the end of the day. It also ruins the abortion industry’s claim of womens’ rights.
 
fix:

I don’t know that I believe in an “objective moral truth”. Human beings are emotional and subly swayed by everything from economic insecurity to the promise of love to an empty stomach. How much of our vulnerability plays into our appreciation of an “objective moral truth”? I suppose it is a comfort to subscribe to the idea of it, as it offers structure to some people’s lives. I have some difficulty digesting the rigidity of the proposition.

marietta
So you say there are no actions that are universally wrong for anybody to commit?

Here’s an easy one: Child Molestation

Is that ever justifiable?
 
Extremely good point. I heard a kid in one of my classes argue this one time. A girl was saying that if she becomes pregnant, and doesn’t want a child, it should be her choice to abort the child. This kid said that he has to pay the 18 years of child support based on that same sexual encounter. The law allows for a woman’s easy way out of the situation, despite whether the man wants the child or not. Why is the same scapegoat action not available to men?
Ah, but it is available via coercion. After all, there’s just as many if not more men working to keep abortion-on-demand legal. Why? Because it relieves men of the responsibility of their actions, much the same way that easy access to contraception does. This is why the pillars of the early feminist movement (e.g. Susan B. Anthony) opposed both abortion and contraception, namely because they reduce women to the status of prostitutes.

Some time ago I had a conversation with the head of Galveston-Houston Archdiocese’s Respect Life Office. She stated emphatically than in all her years of working with women and teenagers who’d had abortions that she never once met anyone who wasn’t pressured into the decision by the father, her family, so-called counselors, et cetera.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
vern humphrey:

The man who does not want to be a father may not have the right to kill his child; but with a willingness to accept whatever consequences may arise, he has the right to choose his actions.

marietta
The woman who does not want to be a mother does not have the right to kill her child; but with a willingness to accept whatever consequences may arise, she has the right to choose her actions. Murdering the child is not one of them.
 
A man and a woman can choose platonic friendship, which will not lead them to having to weigh the decision to terminate a pregnancy.

A man and a woman can choose romantic involvement with chastity.

A man and a woman can choose romantic involvement, marriage and sexual activity.

A man and a woman can choose romantic involvement, including sexual activity, outside of marriage.

A man and a woman can choose romantic involvement including sexual activity and natural family planning.

A man and a woman can choose romantic involvement including sexual activity and other forms of birth control.

A man and a woman can choose love, marriage and children if and when they come.

There are occasions when a woman does not have a choice in the sequence of events. If pregnancy occurs against her will she is faced with a choice to either terminate the pregnancy or carry it to term.

I have listed seven scenarios in which both the man and the woman can have an equal opportunity to choose, to be responsible, to be the architects of their own futures, whether together or apart. Aside from the fact that some of the options may not be acceptable within the teachings of Catholicism, we are discussing all religions here and so these options have been included.

In the case of rape, where the woman was denied choice and finds that she has conceived, she still has a choice as to what her actions will be.

This is choice, based on God-given free will. This is what I defend and uphold. Choices which take place up to a woman’s walk into an abortion clinic are critical. Each party is 100% responsible for the events as they fall into place. ** rlg94086** has interpreted one of my posts as saying that I " . . .accept that a man must have a willingness to accept the consequences of a child, but the woman does not . . ." If a man must “accept the consequences of a child”, then logically the woman must, also, as the child will have been born. If he is referring to the dreaded 18 gruelling years of child support, then we can assume the relationship did not work out, the couple did not stay together. In this case the woman carries the fuller measure of responsibility in raising this child. Joint custody cases are not as common as one might believe. The man’s financial contribution does not qualify as parenting.

I defend the right to choose, for a woman and her partner. The choices come before the vacuum aspirator is cranked up, ladies and gentlemen. The woman and her partner, if he is so inclined, have an opportunity to turn around and walk away from the check-in desk at the clinic. Some women are already on the table, have their IVs in place and have a nitrous mask over their faces and they change their minds: they choose not to continue with the termination. I defend their right to do this. I do not defend their “right to kill”; I defend their right to think, feel, pray, anguish, research, worry, discuss, and choose.

rusty 20:

I must correct you: I did not say " …there are no actions which are universally wrong for anybody to commit." I said that “I don’t know that I believe in an objective moral truth . . . [that] I have some difficulty digesting the rigidity of the proposition.” If there is an objective moral truth, a hard shell of morality which surrounds every individual soul and mind, then I suppose the man who repeatedly violently sexually assaulted me in my preteen years, and the man who raped me when I was 18, and the “sweetheart” who choked me into unconsciousness when I was 25 will have some considerable time to spend in what you call Purgatory. And if Purgatory actually does exist, then I will find my own cubicle there and do my own time, for I’m a sinner as well.

See you there.

marietta
 
Ah, but it is available via coercion. After all, there’s just as many if not more men working to keep abortion-on-demand legal. Why? Because it relieves men of the responsibility of their actions, much the same way that easy access to contraception does. This is why the pillars of the early feminist movement (e.g. Susan B. Anthony) opposed both abortion and contraception, namely because they reduce women to the status of prostitutes.

Some time ago I had a conversation with the head of Galveston-Houston Archdiocese’s Respect Life Office. She stated emphatically than in all her years of working with women and teenagers who’d had abortions that she never once met anyone who wasn’t pressured into the decision by the father, her family, so-called counselors, et cetera.

– Mark L. Chance.
My point was not that man should force abortion on the woman if he desires. My point is that legally, the govenrment provides a woman an easy scapegoat for her actions, and she thus has no consequences. The man, who participated in the same sexual act and has the same consequences, is not given a scapegoat by the government. What if the man wants to abort the baby, but the woman keeps it? Why should he have to pay 18 years of child support? The fact is that women have the upper hand in this situation, and the law provides men with nothing.

I am simply pointing out that equal rights in this case are hardly equal.

For the record: I’m pro-life
 
Mary Gail 36:

About your friend who made an offer to feed, clothe and shelter his child, and he begged and pleaded for the pregnancy to go full-term:

Did you speak to the mother? What did she tell you?

Every story has three sides: his, hers and the Truth.

marietta
 
Part II:

fix:

There is a legal provision for abortion because the majority voted for it.

Choosing evil is very definitely an authentic choice. It may not be the better choice, but it is an alternative, a selection which one might opt for. I agree that not every choice will be a good one.

The fact that you vehemently oppose a woman’s legal right to opt to have an abortion does not make her right to choose “a false right conjured up”. Your anger is duly recognized. My only point is that a woman should have, and does have, the right to choose.

How do I know what “bad” is if I am a relativist? I suggest you ask Catholic Kat, as she is the one who introduced this line of thinking into this thread. She’s over-qualified to give us the lowdown on how someone else is deficient.

Thanks for asking.

marietta
How is there any authentic right to do evil? At one time the state allowed for chattel slavery. By your understanding the “right” to enslave our fellow man was authentic simply because the state said so.
 
**Every story has three sides: his, hers and the Truth.

marietta**
The Truth is found in Christ. The truth is a conceived child is an individual human being subject to the rights and protections of both civil and moral law.

To argue otherwise cheapens all other human life including your own. There is no magic moment somewhere between the zygote and a full term baby just before birth. The ‘magic’ as it were is at conception.

To say a 4 month old baby out of the womb has rights that a 4 month old in the womb does not have is illogical. If the mother of the unborn baby can end the life of her child upon a whim proteced by civil law why can’t the mother of the born baby do the same?

Any answer I think you might give requires you to redefine that ‘magic moment’ and science and reason offers no such justification to support those arguments.
 
So you say there are no actions that are universally wrong for anybody to commit?

Here’s an easy one: Child Molestation

Is that ever justifiable?
I asked about genocide and received no reply.
 
There are occasions when a woman does not have a choice in the sequence of events. If pregnancy occurs against her will she is faced with a choice to either terminate the pregnancy or carry it to term.
First of all, abortions due to incest or rape make up only about 1 1/2% of all abortions.

Secondly, the unborn child is as much a victim as the mother. What kind of justice is it to demand a death sentence for an innocent victim?
I have listed seven scenarios in which both the man and the woman can have an equal opportunity to choose, to be responsible, to be the architects of their own futures, whether together or apart. Aside from the fact that some of the options may not be acceptable within the teachings of Catholicism, we are discussing all religions here and so these options have been included.
Human life is human life – regardless of your religion. Would it be satisfactory if, say the Presbyterians allowed a husband to kill his wife with impunity? Or the Quakers thought it was okay for a brother to kill a sister?
In the case of rape, where the woman was denied choice and finds that she has conceived, she still has a choice as to what her actions will be.
But those choices do not include murdering the other victim.
This is choice, based on God-given free will. This is what I defend and uphold.
Rape is a choice. Bank robbery is a choice. Murderer is a choice. And rapists, bank robbers and murderers make their choices based on God-given free will.
I defend the right to choose, for a woman and her partner.
Do you defend the right to choose for a woman and her rapist, for a victim and his killer, for a bank and its robber?
 
**Mary Gail: **

You and fix can go back and see that I have not characterized abortion per se as “bad”. I have described the need for abortion, the strong market for abortion, the root of the entire problem, as being “a tragedy”. The woman who opts to have an abortion may, indeed, be making a poor choice, but I do not believe that there is only one “correct” choice. Splitting hairs, perhaps, but the poor choice speaks to many facets of the woman’s circumstances, and the “correct” choice addresses only the moral aspect of her decision.
So, direct abortion is not bad, but the need for abortion is bad? Why is the need bad if abortion is neutral?
There are certainly laws which tell you that you may not take my car or leave your kids on the side of the road. But, like it or not, there currently is no law in the United States which prohibits abortion in the first two trimesters of pregnancy. So GET OUT THE VOTE if you want to change it. The “death of the unborn” may not be a morally neutral thing, but my standing back and allowing another woman to decide how she will proceed, or if she will proceed, with her pregnancy, is the height of neutrality
Hardly. Claiming you have no interest in the killing of your fellow man is absurd. That the state allows it in no way means it is good or neutral. Unless, you think the state is the author of all rights and the author of life?
 
I don’t comprehend how someone can honestly believe the way Marietta does. It is completely irrational from a moral, legal, political, social, and philosophical perspective. I usually see women who justify their own abortions through self-interest, but Marietta is justifying other peoples’ immoral and evil choices by saying they are allowed to do what they want, regardless of morality and laws. Sure, they physically can do what they want, but that does not mean that their actions are morally or legally correct. This is incomprehensible to me… I even catch myself laughing at her responses…
 
I don’t comprehend how someone can honestly believe the way Marietta does. It is completely irrational from a moral, legal, political, social, and philosophical perspective. I usually see women who justify their own abortions through self-interest, but Marietta is justifying other peoples’ immoral and evil choices by saying they are allowed to do what they want, regardless of morality and laws. Sure, they physically can do what they want, but that does not mean that their actions are morally or legally correct. This is incomprehensible to me… I even catch myself laughing at her responses…
We can all physically do what we want. We can commit the most heinous crimes imaginable. But they are crimes!!

“It’s a choice” doesn’t mean “it’s a morally-acceptable choice!” Murder is murder.
 
“Ma’am, would you prefer the chicken or the fish?”
“I choose not to have sexual relations!”
And I firmly THAT!
You know what Marietta?

This is why this thread is boring me. You are not serious. You are just in this to argue. And not very effectively at that. You can’t make me believe that you think any of us are referring to the choice between fish or fowl.

When we see the word CHOICE, used like that or in the phrase, “a woman’s right to choose,” or “reproductive choice” the choice in question is the choice to kill the unborn on demand. You can pretend, or deny or whatever the heck it is you are doing all you like but you know and we all know what is being discussed here.

You make a mockery of it and everyone on this thread trying to have a serious conversation, everytime you type up something like this dribble. What does, “I firmly THAT!” mean anyway?
 
We can all physically do what we want. We can commit the most heinous crimes imaginable. But they are crimes!!

“It’s a choice” doesn’t mean “it’s a morally-acceptable choice!” Murder is murder.
Well, if she is just trying to make the claim that regardless of laws and morality, people can and will do what they want, then yes I agree. However, that does not mean I agree with their choices or see their choices outside of moral or legal views…

Craziness if you ask me HAHA
 
Well, if she is just trying to make the claim that regardless of laws and morality, people can and will do what they want, then yes I agree. However, that does not mean I agree with their choices or see their choices outside of moral or legal views…

Craziness if you ask me HAHA
That’s my point. "Free will "doesn’t mean “license to commit any crime.” And saying something is “a choice” doesn’t make it devoid of moral consequences. In the context of this discussion, if the “choice” is to murder the unborn child, it’s still murder.
 
“‘choice’: implies the chance, right or power to choose, usually by the free exercise of one’s judgment’”

The free exercise of one’s judgment. Free will. We all have it. We all put it into play every single day. Sometimes we choose something that will be harmful to ourselves or to another. We’ve all done it. When a woman is standing on the precipice of opting for abortion or not opting for abortion, what is so hard about our granting her the same free will that God has and allowing her to decide on her own?

I’ll try again. I do not support abortion. I support a woman’s right to stand on that precipice and maybe even turn around, go home, put her feet on the coffee table, eat ice cream, watch Oprah and carry to term.

The mistakes we have all made clearly show that many times we don’t even know what’s good for us. How can we be so sanctimonious as to dictate to a stranger what is good and right for her?

The points I’ve been making throughout all of my posts are not irrational from a legal, political or social perspective. At least the government allows us to decide for ourselves. As far as the moral and philosophical perspective, how asinine to believe that every American shares the same moral and philosophical beliefs.

MIZER said it best: “When we see the word CHOICE, used like that or in the phrase, ‘a woman’s right to choose’, or ‘reproductive choice’, the choice in question is the choice to kill the unborn on demand.” This is because the word “choice” has been diminished to a tool of extremely narrow interpretation, and used as such by anti-abortion people throughout this country and the world. Perhaps this is the evolution of the language, but the meaning I attribute to it, as stated above, has everything to do with the free exercise of one’s judgment.

MIZER, if the thread is boring you, step back. I am serious about the topic or I would not have spent hours upon hours attempting to explain that sliver of grey area before suction takes place or pills are swallowed. I am abundantly clear on what is being discussed here, perhaps more clear than many other posters who choose to attack me without even considering what I’m conveying.

“And I firmly THAT!” refers to a post which appeared earlier. Maybe you missed this one? Are you simply skimming?

Murder. To kill a person unlawfully and with malice. Much to your chagrin, abortion is not unlawful today. I know of not one single woman who has approached abortion with malice in her heart. I have not known a rape victim who sought an abortion, however; perhaps that might be different.

marietta
 
Abortion is the murder of a living breathing human being. Plain and Simple.
 
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