Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?

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I can only get to them as fast as I get to them - the slings and arrows have really been picking up speed today.

Regarding your question on genocide: I don’t know how much clearer I can make this, or how many languages I need to post this in, but here’s another shot at it:

Genocide is the systematic killing or extermination of a whole people or nation. Though inflammatory, I can understand how many people, particularly Catholics, view the act of abortion in this light.

I am trying not to address the act of abortion. My posts have referred to **the act of choosing **just what to do in the case of unexpected or blighted pregnancy. I don’t like abortion. It is painful on levels that no man will know and very, very few Catholic women will know. We each are entitled to our opinion on this subject. I do not disagree with the fact that abortion is a tragedy, it is profoundly sad. Yes, lives are lost. Yes, relationships are damaged. Yes, God’s tears can be felt all over the world because of it.

But the rhetoric the surrounds the pro-life, anti-abortion movement (and I daresay anything rhetorical from the pro-abortion side) needs to get dialed back a notch. Nothing comes of hurling epithets. I guess I was just born to late to enjoy civility.

marietta
I asked about genocide as an example of objective moral absolutes. Do you think genocide, as was practiced during WWII, is ever justifiable?

As to free will and choice my position is that we are free to choose good. Choosing evil is a misuse of freedom.

Yes, it is possible to choose evil. The point is such a choice needs to be curtailed in situations that include harmimg innocent people.
 
Posters:

Catholic Kat:


You may not abort your fetus when you are in labor. To the best of my knowledge, the latest anyone will perform an abortion is at 24 weeks’ gestation. No remarks or judgment necessary: moot point.
Actually, I know that a few years ago, there was a woman in Virginia who went into labor in the ninth month and on the way to the hospital shot herself in the womb, intentionally murdering her baby. She was found innocent under “her right to choose.” So you see, Marietta, what you relativists fail to remember, but the Holy Father has reminded us of it again and again is that morality is a slippery slope. If you open up the door for immorality even slightly, suddenly, you have a Pandora’s box on your hands. By giving permission to destroy life in “certain circumstances,” you have given permission to destroy life in all circumstances eventually.
MIZER:
Life must be gloriously simple when everything is spelled out in black and white and all one must do is walk that line without question. I have days when I nearly envy you people, wrapped all snuggly and warm in that comfy blanket of righteousness.

marietta
It’s true —life is much simpler when you embrace Christ’s teachings. And you too could be “wrapped all snuggly and warm in THAT comfry blanket…” by merely embracing Catholic teachings and believing that the Church’s teachings are infallable and believing that the Pope is the successor to Peter and believing that God gave us Jesus Christ as proof of His love and righteousness and by loving God enough to protect His commandments.
 
I believe that most people in this country live by some sort of absolutes. Life must be gloriously simple when everything is spelled out in black and white and all one must do is walk that line without question. I have days when I nearly envy you people, wrapped all snuggly and warm in that comfy blanket of righteousness.

Today is not one of them.

marietta
Is not seeing every moral situatuion as “gray” simply about being unprincipled? Of course, many moral choices are difficult to discern how to act. But, killing innocents is not one such situation.

Truth is like a sword in that it divides. It is not always comfortable to act correctly. And I would point out it is not simply a matter of comfort. Is 2+2=4 comfortable? It is true whether you or I like it or not.
 
Marrietta sounds frustrated as she states:
I can only get to them as fast as I get to them - the slings and arrows have really been picking up speed today.
Marrietta,

Please don’t consider what the people are telling you on this board, slings and arrows. No one is attacking you personally. At least they don’t mean to, I know I don’t mean to.

What you are being hit with are pro-life arguments. Pro-life is the right side of this issue. You’ve heard it said, “the truth hurts.” Perhaps you are struggling with the sting of the truth and that’s why you feel like we are slinging arrows.

“Pro-choice” has nothing to do with choice. The word choice was re-defined to mean abortion long before you entered into debate on this board. And, it was re-defined by the Pro-abort movement, in the sixties, not the pro-life movement. There are no so called, “pro-choicers” out there fighting for a women’s right to let her baby live. There never has been. Do you see? Can you see the truth of what I’m saying?
 
continuing with Marrietta,

The word choice does not mean “to choose.” Not anymore. The word CHOICE means abortion. Abortion is an act of violence that kills a child. So, like it or not, when you say, I am “pro-choice,” you are saying, “I am for an act of violence that kills a child.” When you say, I stand for a woman’s “right to choose,” you are saying, “I stand for a woman’s right to kill her un-born child.”

These are simply truths. You can not RE-re-define the word choice back to what it meant before 1973 just to make yourself feel better about your conviction. It doesn’t work that way. The word means what it means. And, if you want to feel better about your conviction, you need to change your conviction. There is no shame in changing your mind about abortion. Go to www.abortionno.org and you can read about people who are changing their mind every day. Every second. Climb aboard, see how much better you can feel about every aspect of your life when you get on the side of life. The culture of death is a dark, dangerous, scary and evil place to live.

To give you some perspective on CHOICE. Consider this:

You can’t go around saying you’re gay and expect people to think you mean you’re happy and joyful. If you say, “I’m gay,” people will think you have a same gender, sexual preference, and there is nothing you can do about that. You certainly can’t RE-re-define the term gay, in your own mind and expect others to be able to keep up with your thought process when you are engaged in conversation about your convictions regarding the institution of marriage. It would also be un-fair for you to state that it was the anti-homosexual contingency in this country that diminished the meaning of the word gay, as that is un-true.

The word gay, like choice, was a word commandeered by the pro-homosexual movement to be used as propadanda to dumb down the American people and get them to stop thinking. And it’s worked. And it continues to work as more and more people, especially the young, who are born into the “gay” culture, accept and tolerate the homosexual agenda being forced down our throats. It’s the exact same situation we had forty years ago before abortion was legalized by a run-away supreme court. This is how our culture is sliding down a slippery slope into the hands of Satan.

We can no longer call evil, evil because of political correctness, with it’s doctrine of relativism. This is what the Bible talks about in “end-time theology” when it say the people will call good, evil and evil, good. It says truths will be called lies and lies will be called truths.

Thirty years ago the American people would have been disgusted at the very thought of “homosexual marriage.” In fact in many states there are still laws on the books outlawing sodomy. That’s what man on man sex is rightly called, sodomy. If you are too young to know the word, look it up. It’s a word the “gays” would not want you to use or learn about because it requires thought and it is illegal,still today, in most states. But because political correctness, with it’s doctrine of relativism, has become our national religion, I doubt you have ever even heard the term, if I am right about your age.

So consider for a moment whether you think “gay men” should be allowed to have sex with each other in States where sodomy is against the law. Should “gays” be allowed to marry and have sex legally, in States where sodomy is still against the law? Do you realize that for most of US history fornication was also against the law? Do you realize that there may be States in this country where fornication is still on the books and is currently still against the law? In those states should un-married people go to jail for having sex? How might that change what you think about abortion? All I’m doing is applying your thought process to another issue. And if your brain hasn’t yet been turned entirely to mush as a result of the propaganda our culture is awash in, you should be able to think this stuff through and see if you want to keep your thought process unchanged as it applies to abortion. Thinking should allow you to seperate what is moral from what is legal. It should allow you to see that making something legal does not make it moral or right.

How old are you anyway? In a manner of speaking I’m dying to know.
 
rlg94086:

Only time for one post before work this a.m.:

The right to choose to kill or to choose not to kill: this is my sole point.
Okay, help me out here. You seem to be trying to make a distinction between supporting someone’s right to choose to kill or not to kill versus their right to kill. Is that correct? If so, it is nonsensical. If you support someone’s right to choose to kill or not to kill, then you automatically are supporting their right to kill.

It would be like saying, “no, I don’t support the right to steal…I support the right to choose to steal or to choose *not *to steal.”

Similarly, take your words to vz71 and insert a different “tragedy:”

"I said theft is a tragedy; I have not said it is either right or wrong, except in the mind, heart and soul of the woman who is considering it.
 
…and do you realize that not all laws are good laws.
St. Agustine said that an unjust law is no law at all.
St. Aquinas said : An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law.
We have a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
 
Marrietta,

This is from ribozyme from the first page of this thread. I’m quoting him so you can see what I meant when I said the the culture of death is a negative, evil, scary place to live.
I do not see any available technology that will adequately sustain civilization… I wonder if it is possible to be “pro-life” once we run out of oil. I wonder how will a Malthusian catastrophe be averted, but I do understand that I am going off topic to vent my frustration with the current state of the world.
Poor ribozyme, we should just blow ourselves up now because there is no point to life according to his world view, neither can he see how life will be sustained on this planet in the near future anyway so why are we prolonging the agony?
 
You know what Marietta?

This is why this thread is boring me. You are not serious. You are just in this to argue. And not very effectively at that. You can’t make me believe that you think any of us are referring to the choice between fish or fowl.

When we see the word CHOICE, used like that or in the phrase, “a woman’s right to choose,” or “reproductive choice” the choice in question is the choice to kill the unborn on demand. You can pretend, or deny or whatever the heck it is you are doing all you like but you know and we all know what is being discussed here.

You make a mockery of it and everyone on this thread trying to have a serious conversation, everytime you type up something like this dribble. What does, “I firmly THAT!” mean anyway?
Thank you. This is why I refused to answer her DRIBBLE.
 
…to kill.

Your point is meaningless - of course you support their right to kill. If you take away the choice to kill, as we should, the couple still has the “right to think, feel, pray, anguish, research, worry, discuss, and choose.” They just don’t have the choice to kill the unborn child.

You have yet to give a good reason for them to have the right to choose to kill their unborn child.
👍
 
One more thing I would like to point out about why I am impressed that Marrietta is still here. I looked through as many pages of this thread as I could, looking for emervents who is a pro-abort and objected to being called a pro-abort on the first page. I couldn’t find her after the first page and I don’t recall seeing her tag on any of these later pages. So see? She bailed. Can’t defend her position which I think is much further to the left then our friend Marrietta’s.

Come to think of it, are their any pro-abort’s other than Marrietta still here? I don’t think so. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. We havn’t even heard from SoCalRC in a while.

Could it be that most pro-aborts just like to argue and not really learn the truth? Is it possible Marrietta is here to learn truth and so we should give her more respect than perhaps we have? Myself included?

To that end, I’ll be the first to apologize to marrietta for anything I may have said on this thread that personally offended her. Her head in the sand comment comes to mind.

Marrietta, I’m sorry for that one and any other personally offensive statement I may have said to you. If you are here to learn truth and not just argue then you should know, by now, I respect that.
 
Marrietta,

This is from ribozyme from the first page of this thread. I’m quoting him so you can see what I meant when I said the the culture of death is a negative, evil, scary place to live.

Poor ribozyme, we should just blow ourselves up now because there is no point to life according to his world view, neither can he see how life will be sustained on this planet in the near future anyway so why are we prolonging the agony?
Well, there is a way he can sustain his life – but it involves him getting a job and going to work.😉
 
I have repeatedly stated my position on abortion. My position on choice is that it every woman’s right to choose what is right *for *her. I have never even said that choosing abortion is “right”. All I have been defending is the right to choose.marietta
and
The right to choose to kill or to choose not to kill: this is my sole point.

I said abortion is a tragedy; I have not said it is either right or wrong, except in the mind, heart and soul of the woman who is considering it. marietta
Hello Marietta:)

I hope you won’t mind me replying to these two messages of yours that were addressed to other individuals.🙂 I used to council females contemplating abortion. To this day those who decided to have a child continue to grace me by the presence of their darling children. However, years ago a very close friend decided to have an abortion. As a woman my friendship with each woman has not altered though I am reminded of the tragedy of abortion for all involved, including myself (the bystander). One never suffers alone. We suffer along with our neighbor’s torments. Figuratively speaking, storks do not fly in this nightmare! The Innocents die. And such was the case when my dear friend’s husband packed his bags and left her with their two girls until she had had an abortion. She thought her Down’s baby not being born was the remedy. How I prayed as a Daughter of Thunder, St. Gertrude please be my Godmother. Save the child. Take me. I chewed nails from a crown of thorns instead. A metal tong crushed the seventh-month, jellied head! Yes, it is true. Yes, tears roll down my cheek as I write this to you for my memory does not forget the crime nor does it ease the pain that will forever remain. My only consolation is to wonder if a diamond-winged angel speaking fire in The Room of Birthdays as the parents drank bloody cocktails shortly after the event carried off the child’s soul to heavenly peace. For me, forgiveness has become the genie of mercy with a warm bottle that I freely share with those who are left spiritually starving.

May we all be blessed with sound body and mind:) Peace be with you.
 
POSTERS:

Oy, such an epiphany I’ve had! A heartfelt expression of sincere gratitude must be extended to each and every one of you who have been kind enough to help me to redefine myself.

Let’s see. So far I have been referred to in these heartwarming Catholic terms of endearment, coming to you from the absolute zenith of charity, the pinnacle of all that is Christlike:

**-- appalling
– disgusting
– frightening
– completely backwards
– attitudinal
– defiant
– insulting
– sinful
– ignorant
– a sociopath
– a propagandist
– a relativist
– wrong
– vague
– confusing
– a liar
– laughable
– boring
– completely irrational
– not serious
– ineffective
– unprincipled
– pro-abort
– spewing dribble **

Without your kind and gentle intervention, how was I ever to learn that I

**-- am spreading fallacy
– worship my body
– am totally fooling myself
– have yet to give good reason for my argument
– am a challenge dodger
– am willing to kill
– believe it’s all about me
– am typical of the liberal left
– don’t have a clue
– have my head in the sand *
– make absolutely no sense whatsoever, morally, legally, politically, socially or philosophically

And my personal favorite:

I AM WALLOWING IN THE SUNNY RAYS OF THE WORD “CHOICE”.**

What to do with all this love? It’s staggering, the amount of time and energy so many of you have spent listening without judging, truly contemplating what I was trying to convey to you. Your refinement, your politeness, your generosity of thought and spirit - well, gosh darn it, I’m just overwhelmed.

A fabulous job done with vigor and zeal by Christ’s most vociferous soldiers! Although, as I thumb through my Baltimore Catechism and my Cathechism of the Catholic Church, neither
has a glossary which contains any of the expressions of affection listed above. Can anyone explain that?

Ineffectively,

marietta

P.S. Thank you, MIZER. We agree to disagree, but you have shown real integrity here.
 
POSTERS:

Oy, such an epiphany I’ve had! A heartfelt expression of sincere gratitude must be extended to each and every one of you who have been kind enough to help me to redefine myself.

Let’s see. So far I have been referred to in these heartwarming Catholic terms of endearment, coming to you from the absolute zenith of charity, the pinnacle of all that is Christlike:

**-- appalling
– disgusting
– frightening
– completely backwards
– attitudinal
– defiant
– insulting
– sinful
– ignorant
– a sociopath
– a propagandist
– a relativist
– wrong
– vague
– confusing
– a liar
– laughable
– boring
– completely irrational
– not serious
– ineffective
– unprincipled
– pro-abort
– spewing dribble **

Without your kind and gentle intervention, how was I ever to learn that I

**-- am spreading fallacy
– worship my body
– am totally fooling myself
– have yet to give good reason for my argument
– am a challenge dodger
– am willing to kill
– believe it’s all about me
– am typical of the liberal left
– don’t have a clue
– have my head in the sand *
– make absolutely no sense whatsoever, morally, legally, politically, socially or philosophically

And my personal favorite**:

I AM WALLOWING IN THE SUNNY RAYS OF THE WORD “CHOICE”.

What to do with all this love? It’s staggering, the amount of time and energy so many of you have spent listening without judging, truly contemplating what I was trying to convey to you. Your refinement, your politeness, your generosity of thought and spirit - well, gosh darn it, I’m just overwhelmed.

A fabulous job done with vigor and zeal by Christ’s most vociferous soldiers! Although, as I thumb through my Baltimore Catechism and my Cathechism of the Catholic Church, neither
has a glossary which contains any of the expressions of affection listed above. Can anyone explain that?

Ineffectively,

marietta

P.S. Thank you, MIZER. We agree to disagree, but you have shown real integrity here.
I don’t think anyone has sat in judgment of your mortal soul marietta. At least I hope they have not. I disagree with you in the strongest of ways. Mainly because as Catholics I believe that we have a duty that is ordained from Christ himself to protect the inherent dignity of life. Abortion goes against that. Speaking out about it and calling attention to it is not judgmental. If we didn’t that would be a sin. Granted some people get more volatile about it. Know this Marietta, I will try to be as charitable as possible, and if I fail I will ask for your forgiveness. I believe in fighting for life, I believe abortion to be hateful, the only thing that will conquer that hate is love. May the love of Christ be with you this night and illuminate your mind and heart to always do what is right.

In Christ Jesus,

Aquinas
 
Thumb through the New Testament and you’ll see Jesus saying worse than that about some people though.😃
 
A fabulous job done with vigor and zeal by Christ’s most vociferous soldiers! Although, as I thumb through my Baltimore Catechism and my Cathechism of the Catholic Church, neither
has a glossary which contains any of the expressions of affection listed above. Can anyone explain that?
Like Aquinas74, it has never been my intent to judge you personally. I also do not recall using any of the language you cite. I do, quite seriously, disagree with your position, and have tried to convey why, but I have no special access to the mind of God and am specifically instructed not to judge others as part of my faith. If your interpretation of my remarks has been otherwise, I am sorry.

Peace
 
I said abortion is a tragedy; I have not said it is either right or wrong, except in the mind, heart and soul of the woman who is considering it.
marietta
I see. So you do not want to call abortion right or wrong, but you will call it a tragedy.

But you have not answered the question I posed.
Why not make this choice illegal?
Why should this particular choice be legal?
 
POSTERS:

Oy, such an epiphany I’ve had! A heartfelt expression of sincere gratitude must be extended to each and every one of you who have been kind enough to help me to redefine myself.

Let’s see. So far I have been referred to in these heartwarming Catholic terms of endearment, coming to you from the absolute zenith of charity, the pinnacle of all that is Christlike:
– pro-abort

Ineffectively,

marietta

P.S. Thank you, MIZER. We agree to disagree, but you have shown real integrity here.
I am a little confused here.
You do accept the choice to abort…at least you have made that claim repeatedly. So how is it that pro-abortion does not fit?
 
POSTERS:

Oy, such an epiphany I’ve had! A heartfelt expression of sincere gratitude must be extended to each and every one of you who have been kind enough to help me to redefine myself.

Let’s see. So far I have been referred to in these heartwarming Catholic terms of endearment, coming to you from the absolute zenith of charity, the pinnacle of all that is Christlike:

**-- appalling
– disgusting
– frightening
– completely backwards
– attitudinal
– defiant
– insulting
– sinful
– ignorant
– a sociopath
– a propagandist
– a relativist
– wrong
– vague
– confusing
– a liar
– laughable
– boring
– completely irrational
– not serious
– ineffective
– unprincipled
– pro-abort
– spewing dribble **

Without your kind and gentle intervention, how was I ever to learn that I

**-- am spreading fallacy
– worship my body
– am totally fooling myself
– have yet to give good reason for my argument
– am a challenge dodger
– am willing to kill
– believe it’s all about me
– am typical of the liberal left
– don’t have a clue
– have my head in the sand *
– make absolutely no sense whatsoever, morally, legally, politically, socially or philosophically

And my personal favorite**:

I AM WALLOWING IN THE SUNNY RAYS OF THE WORD “CHOICE”.

What to do with all this love? It’s staggering, the amount of time and energy so many of you have spent listening without judging, truly contemplating what I was trying to convey to you. Your refinement, your politeness, your generosity of thought and spirit - well, gosh darn it, I’m just overwhelmed.

A fabulous job done with vigor and zeal by Christ’s most vociferous soldiers! Although, as I thumb through my Baltimore Catechism and my Cathechism of the Catholic Church, neither
has a glossary which contains any of the expressions of affection listed above. Can anyone explain that?

Ineffectively,

marietta

P.S. Thank you, MIZER. We agree to disagree, but you have shown real integrity here.
and this is from people who want to convert you to their point of view??

yeah, throw insults at her, that’ll make her change her mind…

I admire the passion, but I can’t say that I always agree with the strategy.
 
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