Pro-Choice folks, what are your reasons for supporting abortion?

[wildleafblower]

The following document is from the website of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops:

**On the Fundamental Right to Life **

Pope Benedict XVI:
 God’s love does not differentiate between the newly conceived infant still in his or her mother’s womb and the child or young person, or the adult and the elderly person. God does not distinguish between them because he sees an impression of his own image and likeness (Gn 1:26) in each one.1

 Life is the first good received from God and is fundamental to all others; to guarantee the right to life for all and in an equal manner for all is the duty upon which the future of humanity depends.2

U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops:
 [T]he failure to protect and defend life in its most vulnerable stages renders suspect any claims to the ‘rightness’ of positions in other matters affecting the poorest and least powerful of the human community. If we understand the human person as the “temple of the Holy Spirit” – the living house of God – then these latter issues fall logically into place as the crossbeams and walls of that house. All direct attacks on innocent human life, such as abortion and euthanasia, strike at the house’s foundation. These directly and immediately violate the human person’s most fundamental right – the right to life. Neglect of these issues is the equivalent of building our house on sand. Such attacks cannot help but lull the social conscience in ways ultimately destructive of other human rights.3

**Abortion **
Pope Benedict XVI:
 Children truly are the family’s greatest treasure and most precious good. Consequently, everyone must be helped to become aware of the intrinsic evil of the crime of abortion. In attacking human life in its very first stages, it is also an aggression against society itself. Politicians and legislators, therefore, as servants of the common good, are duty bound to defend the fundamental right to life, the fruit of God’s love.4
 As far as the right to life is concerned, we must denounce its widespread violation in our society…. Abortion and embryonic experimentation constitute a direct denial of that attitude of acceptance of others which is indispensable for establishing lasting relationships of peace.5
 [E]ven in the most difficult circumstances human freedom is capable of extraordinary acts of sacrifice and solidarity to welcome the life of a new human being.6

U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops:
 Among important issues involving the dignity of human life with which the Church is concerned, abortion necessarily plays a central role. Abortion, the direct killing of an innocent human being, is always gravely immoral (The Gospel of Life, no. 57); its victims are the most vulnerable and defenseless members of the human family. It is imperative that those who are called to serve the least among us give urgent attention and priority to this issue of justice.7
 While at times human law may not fully articulate the moral imperative – full protection for the right to life – our legal system can and must be continually reformed so that it will increasingly fulfill its proper task of protecting the weak and preserving the right to life of every human being, born and unborn.8
**

The above document is located on the following url:
usccb.org/prolife/tdocs/popebquotes2008.shtml
http://www.usccb.org/prolife/tdocs/popebquotes2008.shtml

I highly recommend reading the following pdf from the USCCB!
usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/forum_winter-spring08.pdf

The Church positon on ABORTION:

Code of Canon Law
BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH LIBER VI. DE SANCTIONIBUS IN ECCLESIA
PART II. PENALTIES FOR INDIVIDUAL DELICTS
TITLE VI. DELICTS AGAINST HUMAN LIFE AND FREEDOM (Cann. 1397 - 1398)
TITLE VI.

DELICTS AGAINST HUMAN LIFE AND FREEDOM (Cann. 1397 - 1398)

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P57.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P57.HTM

If you a Catholic female contemplating an abortion, you have been informed. **

 

[rlg94086]

Like Aquinas74, it has never been my intent to judge you personally. I also do not recall using any of the language you cite. I do, quite seriously, disagree with your position, and have tried to convey why, but I have no special access to the mind of God and am specifically instructed not to judge others as part of my faith. If your interpretation of my remarks has been otherwise, I am sorry.

Peace

Ditto…

I don’t think anything on the list was from me, except maybe **have yet to give good reason for my argument, **but then again not everything on Marietta’s list was particularly uncharitable.

If the above is the worst I’ve said, then I’m sure you (SoCalRC) will agree I kept decent control of myself on marietta’s posts.

 

[rusty20]

Marietta

Your post, while sad, still has not addressed your thoughts on whether or not the action of abortion is murder. You still have yet to address the various strong arguments against your position, and instead attempt to play the sympathy card. I’m not buying it. I’d still like you to give us a good explanation of why a woman should morally be allowed to murder her child. The rest of us agree this is beyond our moral convictions (and the natural law or morality).

 

[marietta]

rusty20:

Post #6,402: message the same. My argument is for choice. I am not compelled to judge the outcome of the choice. If abortion is murder, that determination is within the soul of the woman procuring the abortion. If abortion is not murder, that determination, too, is in the soul of the woman procuring the abortion. I am not qualified to judge her.

Sympathy card? What the . . .

I have addressed your queries a hundredfold. I owe you nothing. No one on this forum agrees with anything I have said, and that’s fine. I didn’t expect anyone to agree with me on this topic. I was hoping to find a glimmer of openmindedness amidst the steely rhetoric, but that was not to be. Of course the rest of you agree this is beyond your moral convictions. You are all good, upstanding, Mass-attending, NFP-practicing, rosary-reciting, self-sacrificing pillars of morality. And I am stinking up your beautiful but exclusive world by having the audacity to have an idea which differs from yours.

You’re not buyin’ it? Cool.

marietta

 

[vz71]

I have addressed your queries a hundredfold. I owe you nothing. No one on this forum agrees with anything I have said, and that’s fine. I didn’t expect anyone to agree with me on this topic. I was hoping to find a glimmer of openmindedness amidst the steely rhetoric, but that was not to be. Of course the rest of you agree this is beyond your moral convictions. You are all good, upstanding, Mass-attending, NFP-practicing, rosary-reciting, self-sacrificing pillars of morality. And I am stinking up your beautiful but exclusive world by having the audacity to have an idea which differs from yours.

You’re not buyin’ it? Cool.

marietta

Actually, you have answered for nothing.
You keep saying the word choice, but the question on hand is why should the choice to abort be a valid choice.

You haven’t even attempted to evade, you simply ignore the question, and keep saying choice.

Try to answer the questions posed…assuming you can.

And with the sarcasm evident in your post, I’m not so certain anyone would buy what you are saying.

 

[rusty20]

rusty20:

Post #6,402: message the same. My argument is for choice. I am not compelled to judge the outcome of the choice. If abortion is murder, that determination is within the soul of the woman procuring the abortion. If abortion is not murder, that determination, too, is in the soul of the woman procuring the abortion. I am not qualified to judge her.

marietta

Fine, don’t judge her. Judge the action. None of us are saying women who have abortions are horrible people. We are simply saying they have made a mistake and have commited a horrible sin. We do not judge people, only actions.

Could I ask you to do the same?

 

[Verisimilitude]

You are all good, upstanding, Mass-attending, NFP-practicing, rosary-reciting, self-sacrificing pillars of morality. And I am stinking up your beautiful but exclusive world by having the audacity to have an idea which differs from yours.

I bet many of ‘us’ have the scars upon our souls from personal indescretions that may or may not equal the current topic, but suffice it to say it rarely is from a position of moral superiority that most are speaking from to include myself. Reconcilliation on Saturdays stays busy for obvious reasons. Humility is a difficult emotion to express in words alone and sometimes it is overcome by the depth and passion of the argument.

We fight amongst ourselves often enough depending on the topic so the beautiful exclusive world you are stinking up has a few odors already and you are welcome to fume with us if you like. Just stand down wind of the war in Iraq threads if you want to avoid a nasty one.

You’re not buyin’ it? Cool.

marietta

I think I understand your position and the reasons to feel some justification in them but what you are selling is indifference by inaction when it comes down to it.

There is a song by Rush that goes ‘If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.’ You are choosing not to decide for the individual women but the result of that choice does not acknowledge the life of the individual within her or the father. The parable of the Good Samaratin can apply here but instead of a man beaten and left for dead on the side of the road it is an innocent child in the womb ‘we’ are trying to help.

I have yet to see a sound argument that descibes a gestating child as not alive or non-human at any point so in my view individual human rights apply at conception. That is a secular argument. We should embrace that view as a society and is the foundation of our law that all human life is equal and worth protection. Our Constitution says we have that responsibility and our Declaration of Independence says we have that right to life and liberty. It is not about personal privacy.

Tsunamis and earthquakes kill tens of thousands every year and humans respond with help to other humans~sort of. Unless politics and governments gets in the way of humanity. Abortion kills tens of thousands every year and humans are prevented from helping other humans by politics and governments. The question of life is a non-negotiable for that reason as it transends politics and governments; or should transend it if we followed our natural instincts. SCOTUS ruled wrongly and created law and for that reason Roe should be withdrawn and the question of life is removed from federal jurisdiction unless it be tried in a court as prescribed by law.

Common decency should allow each child their day in court before it is terminated. Let the mother, father, and doctor give public justification for ending the childs life like the government requires for accused criminals and give free legal counsel for the childs defense also like the government prescribes if the individual is unable to afford or speak for them selves.

 

[KathleenElsie]

…Abortion kills tens of thousands every year and humans are prevented from helping other humans by politics and governments. The question of life is a non-negotiable for that reason as it transends politics and governments; or should transend it if we followed our natural instincts. SCOTUS ruled wrongly and created law and for that reason Roe should be withdrawn and the question of life is removed from federal jurisdiction unless it be tried in a court as prescribed by law.

Common decency should allow each child their day in court before it is terminated. Let the mother, father, and doctor give public justification for ending the childs life like the government requires for accused criminals and give free legal counsel for the childs defense also like the government prescribes if the individual is unable to afford or speak for them selves.

I am sorry if the word DRIBBLE offended. IMHO when the subject is abortion as a choice and the argument goes on and on and on it tends to become a DRIP and DRIBBLE. God’s creation of each and every life (soul) is His and His only to give and take. End of discussion.

 

[fix]

POSTERS:

Oy, such an epiphany I’ve had! A heartfelt expression of sincere gratitude must be extended to each and every one of you who have been kind enough to help me to redefine myself.

Let’s see. So far I have been referred to in these heartwarming Catholic terms of endearment, coming to you from the absolute zenith of charity, the pinnacle of all that is Christlike:

**-- appalling
– disgusting
– frightening
– completely backwards
– attitudinal
– defiant
– insulting
– sinful
– ignorant
– a sociopath
– a propagandist
– a relativist
– wrong
– vague
– confusing
– a liar
– laughable
– boring
– completely irrational
– not serious
– ineffective
– unprincipled
– pro-abort
– spewing dribble **

Without your kind and gentle intervention, how was I ever to learn that I

**-- am spreading fallacy
– worship my body
– am totally fooling myself
– have yet to give good reason for my argument
– am a challenge dodger
– am willing to kill
– believe it’s all about me
– am typical of the liberal left
– don’t have a clue
– have my head in the sand *
– make absolutely no sense whatsoever, morally, legally, politically, socially or philosophically

And my personal favorite**:

I AM WALLOWING IN THE SUNNY RAYS OF THE WORD “CHOICE”.

What to do with all this love? It’s staggering, the amount of time and energy so many of you have spent listening without judging, truly contemplating what I was trying to convey to you. Your refinement, your politeness, your generosity of thought and spirit - well, gosh darn it, I’m just overwhelmed.

A fabulous job done with vigor and zeal by Christ’s most vociferous soldiers! Although, as I thumb through my Baltimore Catechism and my Cathechism of the Catholic Church, neither
has a glossary which contains any of the expressions of affection listed above. Can anyone explain that?

Ineffectively,

marietta

P.S. Thank you, MIZER. We agree to disagree, but you have shown real integrity here.

Much of what you have is not in context and assigned to your arguments, not you as a person.
Does any of what you have here make your argument? Is choosing evil a good thing?

 

[allhers]

rusty20:

Post #6,402: message the same. My argument is for choice. I am not compelled to judge the outcome of the choice. If abortion is murder, that determination is within the soul of the woman procuring the abortion. If abortion is not murder, that determination, too, is in the soul of the woman procuring the abortion. I am not qualified to judge her.

Sympathy card? What the . . .

I have addressed your queries a hundredfold. I owe you nothing. No one on this forum agrees with anything I have said, and that’s fine. I didn’t expect anyone to agree with me on this topic. I was hoping to find a glimmer of openmindedness amidst the steely rhetoric, but that was not to be. Of course the rest of you agree this is beyond your moral convictions. You are all good, upstanding, Mass-attending, NFP-practicing, rosary-reciting, self-sacrificing pillars of morality. And I am stinking up your beautiful but exclusive world by having the audacity to have an idea which differs from yours.

You’re not buyin’ it? Cool.

marietta

You got that right, because abortion is murder, no matter how you try to pretty it up.

 

[allhers]

…oh, and you forgot to say card carrying, I have one that says, “I am a Catholic, in case of an accident please call a Priest.”
…and also yes, quite frankly you are stinking up the world with this idea of yours that abortion isn’t murder. You’ll find no
“glimmer of openmindedness amidst the steely rhetoric” that you keep claiming that …"*If *abortion is not murder…", it is-Period!!
You, quite frankly are the one that needs to open your mind, not to mention your heart and soul and realize this. No one is judging any woman, just the facts, the sin of abortion is murder, plain and simple.

 

[marietta]

allhers:

What class.

marietta

 

[Fitswimmer]

…oh, and you forgot to say card carrying, I have one that says, “I am a Catholic, in case of an accident please call a Priest.”
…and also yes, quite frankly you are stinking up the world with this idea of yours that abortion isn’t murder. You’ll find no
“glimmer of openmindedness amidst the steely rhetoric” that you keep claiming that …"*If *abortion is not murder…", it is-Period!!
You, quite frankly are the one that needs to open your mind, not to mention your heart and soul and realize this. No one is judging any woman, just the facts, the sin of abortion is murder, plain and simple.

And what are the odds of Marietta, or anyone else who does not agree with you-opening up their minds when this is how they are treated?

Nobody’s mind was ever changed by someone’s insults.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And what are the odds of Marietta, or anyone else who does not agree with you-opening up their minds when this is how they are treated?

Nobody’s mind was ever changed by someone’s insults.

That goes for both sides, you know.

 

[Fitswimmer]

That goes for both sides, you know.

Of course it does. I make every attempt to use that sentence in the most non-partisan manner possible.

 

[fix]

“‘choice’: implies the chance, right or power to choose, usually by the free exercise of one’s judgment’”

The free exercise of one’s judgment. Free will. We all have it. We all put it into play every single day. Sometimes we choose something that will be harmful to ourselves or to another. We’ve all done it. When a woman is standing on the precipice of opting for abortion or not opting for abortion, what is so hard about our granting her the same free will that God has and allowing her to decide on her own?

Because such a choice involves harm to an innocent person. Is that important or not?

The mistakes we have all made clearly show that many times we don’t even know what’s good for us. How can we be so sanctimonious as to dictate to a stranger what is good and right for her?

For one thing because a innocent child is involved. Is that important or not?

The points I’ve been making throughout all of my posts are not irrational from a legal, political or social perspective. At least the government allows us to decide for ourselves. As far as the moral and philosophical perspective, how asinine to believe that every American shares the same moral and philosophical beliefs.

So, objective truth is not “shared” by all. Does that mean innocent persons should be harmed?

Murder. To kill a person unlawfully and with malice.Much to your chagrin, abortion is not unlawful today.

Is the state the author of the right to life?

 

[Catholic_Kat]

allhers:

What class.

marietta

After reading some of your claims, I am wondering…Can you show up for Jury Duty if it’s a murder trial ----after all, you’d be asked to “judge” the murderer’s guilt/innocence? Or, do you “choose” not to get inolved in that either, because after all, you do not know the person who committed the crime, you don’t know the situation he/she was in that drove them to “choose” murder.

Your weak argument is not holding any ground on this forum.

 

[whatevergirl]

It is a woman’s choice to do with her own body what she chooses…but not the life that lives in her. Our laws have twisted the truth of abortion, to making it about a woman’s choice. It’s a woman’s choice to sever her leg, if she really wants to, but it shouldn’t be anyone’s choice to take the life of anyone–in the embryonic stage of life or not. It is the beginning stage of life. We were all once an embryo. Life begins at the cellular level…and if we find a small bit of bacteria on another planet, scientists are jumping for joy because they have discovered LIFE on another planet.

Yet, here we don’t call an embryo–life. We call it …something else. It is not something else, it’s life.

Do we only refer to something as living, only if we choose it to be? If a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer will be charged with the murder of TWO victims, not just one. Is that because the mother chose to not abort? Do we only put value on life, because we choose it to be so?

The sooner our society dispels its love for narcissism, the better.

 

[whatevergirl]

allhers:

What class.

marietta

marietta–I wasn’t that far from what you think about a woman’s right to choose…but, over the years, the more literature I read about the suicidal rates escalating for women who have had abortions, and the downright emotional and physical damage that an abortion can often do to a woman…I started to examine another route. I didn’t cling to the spiritual aspect right away, that part took time. But, eventually, through prayer, and reading more and more about why God is so offended by abortion, and the reasons behind this great offense, I soon realized that what I had come to believe as a ‘woman’s choice,’ was really a lie that was spun by the likes of Planned Parenthood, etc…

I don’t ever expect to change a person’s opinion through this type of medium–an online message board–but all I would say, is that I highly encourage you to read the ‘other side’ about this…read what women who have traveled to Rachel’s Vineyard (a place where women who have had abortions go for therapy and healing) have to say…and then decide. You might come away with the same thoughts I did about it…

I don’t like being wrong, but I was glad to be wrong in this case!

 

[MIZER]

Quote:
Originally Posted by allhers
…oh, and you forgot to say card carrying, I have one that says, “I am a Catholic, in case of an accident please call a Priest.”
…and also yes, quite frankly you are stinking up the world with this idea of yours that abortion isn’t murder. You’ll find no
“glimmer of openmindedness amidst the steely rhetoric” that you keep claiming that …“If abortion is not murder…”, it is-Period!!
You, quite frankly are the one that needs to open your mind, not to mention your heart and soul and realize this. No one is judging any woman, just the facts, the sin of abortion is murder, plain and simple.

And what are the odds of Marietta, or anyone else who does not agree with you-opening up their minds when this is how they are treated?

Nobody’s mind was ever changed by someone’s insults./

QUOTE]

I must be missing something because this post does not look like Marrietta is being mistreated or insulted in any way. Her beliefs regarding abortion do not, in fact, pass the smell test. I’m sorry if that upsets her but she could always study, change her mind and then take the test again.

Maybe I’m a little thicker skinned then most people. I think it’s a cultural thing today that many people seem to be sitting around just waiting to seize on something they can be offended about.

Why must we be overly concerned with the feelings of someone who defends a woman’s right to choose to kill a baby? Marrietta has been told that we do not wish to offend her, insult her or berate her personally. On the otherhand, I will not be more concerned with her feelings then she is with the lives of innocents. If I have to hurt someone’s feelings to save a life, I will. And as many times as possible.

In our politically correct culture, many kids in middle school have learned to be more concerned about protecting the feelings of the bully than the well being of those bullied. Doesn’t make any sense to me.