Pro-Choice in Europe

[TheRealJuliane]

I like everything about Europe except the lack of baseball.

Europeans will respect the uncivilized American barbarians as long their influence does not encroach upon the civilized politics of Europe, but they cannot “just get along” especially when **the barbaric culture of American individualism is the antithesis of European community and solidarity embodied in the welfare state which is the hallmark of a highly civilized society in modernity. **The Europeans correctly loathe the aggressively imperialist stance of the United States which primarily serves to aggressively promote neoliberalism (after the collapse of world communism) and pro-Zionist foreign policy. Europeans merited a right to a sense of condensing collective superiority over the Americans.

See my link: “Abduction of Modernity” for more…

Returning to the actual topic:

I do not fervently oppose abortion in the public sphere because it is possible for me to envision a just society that tolerates abortion, but I do not see how a modern society can be deemed “civilized” if its institutions neglected and flagrantly ignored the material needs of the unfortunate even if its laws are fervently pro-life. I would have a greater feeling of collective pride living in a society with low prevalence of poverty, high economic equality, and a sense of egalitarian unity among its citizens while its legal system accepts the decision of some pregnant women to terminate their pregnancies than a living in a society where abortion is prohibited but for a significant proportion of the population poverty and its associated despair are feature of their existence.

Boy am I glad I’m not you. But today, you trump everyone else on my prayer list.

 

[Black_Rose]

Boy am I glad I’m not you. But today, you trump everyone else on my prayer list.

I just want to mirror the healthy collective narcissism of Chinese Confucians in my comments:

Chinese audiences always enjoy hearing that greatness in Chinese culture is indigenous while decadence is solely the influence of foreign barbarians. Collective self-criticism, unlike xenophobia, has never been a favorite Chinese preoccupation. Chinese narcissism differs from Western narcissism in that superiority is based not on physical power but on social benevolence. From the Chinese historical perspective, the defeat of civilized Athens at the hand of militant Sparta set the entire Western civilization on the wrong footing. It represented the triumph of barbarism from which the West has never recovered.

Confucius would argue that without a Code of Rites (Liji) for governing human behavior, as embedded in the ritual compendium defined by him based on the ideas of Zhougong, human beings would be no better than animals, which Confucius regarded with contempt. Love of animals, a Buddhist notion, is an alien concept to Confucians, who proudly display their species prejudice.

Zhougong gave Chinese civilization the Five Rites and the Six Categories of Music, which form the basis of civilization. Confucian idealism manifests human destiny in a civilization rooted in morality as defined by the Code of Rites, without which man would revert back to the state of wild beasts. Zhougong was credited with having established feudalism as a socio-political order during his short regency of only seven years. He institutionalized it with an elaborate system of Five Rites (Wuli) that has survived the passage of time.

atimes.com/atimes/China/EG24Ad01.html

The Confucians believe without society meticulously following a Code of Rites that gives guidelines for civilized conduct and affirms the social hierarchy, then man would revert to a stage of savagery. This belief is the source for the Confucians’ collective narcissism and condescending attitude to “barbarian” civilizations. Likewise, many Europeans (and myself) believe that without the welfare state, modern civilization would not be possible and the absence of a strong welfare state is tantamount to barbarism. This reflects Oliver Wendell Holmes remark that “Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society” and it naturally flows from this the interpretation that those who demand more “economic freedom” actually demand civilized institutions to be dismantled.

As Henry CK Liu notes, there is no objective reason to believe that the United States of America is more free than any other nation:

Societies express freedom in different historical and social contexts. It is when freedom is curtailed below the level of societal expectation that people feel deprived of freedom. The image Americans hold of themselves as being more free than other people is merely collective narcissism. In reality, they are merely more free in their own peculiar ways. Many Americans, for example, have been conditioned to view freedom from want as not part of their natural right even though the means of individual economic self-sufficiency have been systematically taken away from them by corporate capitalism since the nation’s founding. Today, US workers become unemployed not because they are freeloaders but because management preserves profits through massive layoffs that are rationalized as improved productivity. The high return on investments held in their own retirement accounts are driving workers into unemployment. A sound economic model would have improved productivity translated into economic growth with more demand for workers rather than increased unemployment.

henryckliu.com/page92.html

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Who or what do you think “the government” is? What makes up “the government?” Who is in charge of “the government?”

Who keeps track of this welfare state that all of you admire? Do you trust all your leaders to do what is right in your eyes?

I think liberals must not believe in original sin, because there seems to be a conviction that the individuals in charge of “the government” are all motivated by the most innocent of motives!

Do you believe that humans are intrinsically good and that society is to blame for their corruption?

 

[Aboveallbereal]

I am a European. I regard welfarism as arguably the greatest moral evil committed on Europeans since the war…radically demoralising and infantilising tens of millions.

There you are. Not all Europeans are spineless inadequate handout grabbers. Many of my European friends would love a tea Party movemnent of our own.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I am a European. I regard welfarism as arguably the greatest moral evil committed on Europeans since the war…radically demoralising and infantilising tens of millions.

There you are. Not all Europeans are spineless inadequate handout grabbers. Many of my European friends would love a tea Party movemnent of our own.

Well what started it all for us was the first stimulus bill. Yeah, let’s see, we are BROKE as a nation, our bank account is overdrawn, so let’s spend TRILLIONS more! That’s always worked in MY life…yeah…Oh, Chase Bank called, my account is overdrawn by $1,000…I’m going to go out and spend another $50,000 and see if that helps resolve things…

One of the pundits on MSNBC went off about the insanity of this legislation and we were off to the races. The first tea parties happened right after Rick Santelli had his rant on cable…This was before the 2008 elections, it was NOT about Obama or racism or any of that. It was about Congress having forced banks to loan money to people who were now defaulting on the loans, and then Congress taking our money at gunpoint to bail out their buddies in the bank insurance business (AIG). CORRUPTION at the hands of Congress…We had ENOUGH and we have kept it going and we WILL keep it going until we get rid of this batch of fools! I just pray we have enough time before the whole house of cards falls down…please pray that we do. Because if we go down, we’ll be taking everyone with us.

 

[Kaninchen]

I am a European. I regard welfarism as arguably the greatest moral evil committed on Europeans since the war…radically demoralising and infantilising tens of millions.

There you are. Not all Europeans are spineless inadequate handout grabbers. Many of my European friends would love a tea Party movemnent of our own.

The French had a ‘tea party’, it was called the Poujadist movement.

 

[truthscout]

Mexican Catholics do not support abortion. I know American Democrats think they will gain the Hispanic vote if amnesty eventually goes through, but they might have a big shock coming.

Forty percent of pregnancies among white women, 69% among blacks and 54% among Hispanics are unintended. Thirty percent of abortions occur to non-Hispanic black women, 36% to non-Hispanic white women, 25% to Hispanic women and 9% to women of other races. ~ Guttmacher Institute

truthscout

 

[Elizabeth502]

Mexican Catholics do not support abortion. I know American Democrats think they will gain the Hispanic vote if amnesty eventually goes through, but they might have a big shock coming.

I’m responding both to this poster and to truthscout who just cited the accurate statistics (ones I have also cited on CAF , and/or at least referred to). Actually, both of you are correct. Mexican-American Catholics are still predominantly (although some erosiion has occurred over time) anti-abortion. However, the important point is that both here in this country, and even more so in Mexico (not to mention other Latin American countries as well), the conditions which motivate abortions are significant. IOW, they go ahead and violate their own beliefs out of desperation. The conditions in Latin America are the confluence of poverty, combined with fertility (both younger marriages vs. some other countries and non-contraceptive lifestyles), combined with amibiguous commitment from husbands – to their marriages – combined with a lower level of social support for poor or abandoned women, etc. A woman generally has no idea, if she marries at 17 (sometimes she may be pregnant even at that time) that her own unemployability, her husband’s immaturity and low earning power, may result in her husband making an early exit either from the marriage or merely from morally supporting her. By the time this woman considers an abortion, she may have three young children she is not prepared to handle emotionally or monetarily, and virtually be living as a single parent. (Most abortions in Latin America are to married women.) Yet the culture continues to encourage early marriage, and women often believe that becoming pregnant before marriage will ensure the husband’s support and fidelity. (Not.)

There is a similarly a high rate of abortions in young Hispanic women in the U.S. These are among both wed and unwed, but overwhelming (again) very young and poor. Sometimes it is their first pregnancy, but often it is a second or third pregnancy being halted.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

Forty percent of pregnancies among white women, 69% among blacks and 54% among Hispanics are unintended. Thirty percent of abortions occur to non-Hispanic black women, 36% to non-Hispanic white women, 25% to Hispanic women and 9% to women of other races. ~ Guttmacher Institute

truthscout

One curious point about he American debate is how abortion in effect culls vast percentages of non white and illegitimate babies who would if born be largely tax consumers and thus likely Democrats. In effect abortion protects the notion of the “normalcy” of being white and legitimate and consequently largely tax paying citizens not in receipt of handout.

The Dems are quite literally pouring their own blood down the drain.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’m responding both to this poster and to truthscout who just cited the accurate statistics (ones I have also cited on CAF , and/or at least referred to). Actually, both of you are correct. Mexican-American Catholics are still predominantly (although some erosiion has occurred over time) anti-abortion. However, the important point is that both here in this country, and even more so in Mexico (not to mention other Latin American countries as well), the conditions which motivate abortions are significant. IOW, they go ahead and violate their own beliefs out of desperation. The conditions in Latin America are the confluence of poverty, combined with fertility (both younger marriages vs. some other countries and non-contraceptive lifestyles), combined with amibiguous commitment from husbands – to their marriages – combined with a lower level of social support for poor or abandoned women, etc. A woman generally has no idea, if she marries at 17 (sometimes she may be pregnant even at that time) that her own unemployability, her husband’s immaturity and low earning power, may result in her husband making an early exit either from the marriage or merely from morally supporting her. By the time this woman considers an abortion, she may have three young children she is not prepared to handle emotionally or monetarily, and virtually be living as a single parent. (Most abortions in Latin America are to married women.) Yet the culture continues to encourage early marriage, and women often believe that becoming pregnant before marriage will ensure the husband’s support and fidelity. (Not.)

There is a similarly a high rate of abortions in young Hispanic women in the U.S. These are among both wed and unwed, but overwhelming (again) very young and poor. Sometimes it is their first pregnancy, but often it is a second or third pregnancy being halted.

I said “Mexicans” for a reason. I mean illegals who cross the border and remain primarily MEXICAN in identity. They are stronger Catholics than many American cafeteria Catholics and do not accept abortion and would not accept abortion as part of their party’s platform. Some of them do not understand American politics (well most of them) but they know their faith and they know what life is and isn’t. Of course some Mexicans and hispanics in the US have abortions. There is always a lot of coercion within any community and they are lied to the same as any other American - what I say and commit to is that if the Democrat party thinks that MEXICANS will become American citizens and then remain Democrat as the party stands now, they might just be surprised when their party changes before their eyes. After all, it was Democrats who were supposed to become the party against abortion, since it was seen as something for only rich white Americans. things went in another direction. I actually don’t care which party stands up for life, only that WE ALL DO.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I said “Mexicans” for a reason. I mean illegals who cross the border and remain primarily MEXICAN in identity. They are stronger Catholics than many American cafeteria Catholics and do not accept abortion and would not accept abortion as part of their party’s platform. Some of them do not understand American politics (well most of them) but they know their faith and they know what life is and isn’t. Of course some Mexicans and hispanics in the US have abortions.

Hi, Juliane. I stopped your quote at this sentence because, when it comes to Mexican-Americans (illegal or not illegal, but let’s say, recently immigrated – I think we can agree on that), the beliefs tend to remain strong. They oppose abortion. As I mentioned, there is some erosion due to influences of acculturation, depending on the pressures of the individual woman. (You might be suprised at how quickly erosion can occur; I have worked in Hispanic communities professionally for many years. )

But that was not my point. The point is that, aside from voting decisions (including for other Life matters — Latinos came to the table, thankfully, for Prop 8), personal decisions do not always compute with voting results by ethnicity. This is true across international boundaries. Poverty and desperation can override personal belief when the perception is that the result of a pregnancy will jeopardize the survivability of an already at-risk (effectively) single-parent household. And this perception is reflected in abortion statistics.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I just want to mirror the healthy collective narcissism of Chinese Confucians in my comments:

atimes.com/atimes/China/EG24Ad01.html

The Confucians believe without society meticulously following a Code of Rites that gives guidelines for civilized conduct and affirms the social hierarchy, then man would revert to a stage of savagery. This belief is the source for the Confucians’ collective narcissism and condescending attitude to “barbarian” civilizations. Likewise, many Europeans (and myself) believe that without the welfare state, modern civilization would not be possible and the absence of a strong welfare state is tantamount to barbarism. This reflects Oliver Wendell Holmes remark that “Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society” and it naturally flows from this the interpretation that those who demand more “economic freedom” actually demand civilized institutions to be dismantled.

As Henry CK Liu notes, there is no objective reason to believe that the United States of America is more free than any other nation:

henryckliu.com/page92.html

So what would this Confucian want as a solution for the absolute Sin of Capitalism in this Country---------------Socialism?

Pardon my naivete, but from what little I know of Confucianism------I don’t think the Sage would have advocated a Socialistic System. A lot of things, but not that.

 

[PetersKeys]

Here in the UK no one ever asks. Religion isn’t even considored important, a politician is never going to be asked on their moral/religious beliefs.

It’s legal to have an abortion anywhere in the UK, and its very unlikely to be changed any time soon. If a politician did say they were pro-life, I have a feeling they would lose a lot of the vote. Not because of the individual beliefs of the voter, but because in the UK we have a strong feeling of democracy and think everyone should have the right to everything.

The pro-life movement in the UK is pathetic compared to the USA to be honest.

I think thats because the UK is the fastest growing atheist population in the world. I think almost 50% of the Uk is atheist. You got Pat Condels walking all over the place there lol

 

[LemonAndLime]

I think thats because the UK is the fastest growing atheist population in the world. I think almost 50% of the Uk is atheist. You got Pat Condels walking all over the place there lol

I’d hesitate to say that 50% of the UK is atheist. When asked, 34% of British people who responded to a survey say that they believe in the Creation story over Evolution (a couple years ago). While that does not necessarily mean that those people are religious (some people refuse to believe in Evolution because they cannot understand it, rather than because they are Christian) it shows that the percentage of religious people in the UK is more of case of a silent large group, rather than a very vocal large percentage of people (like in the USA). Just to add from my own experience, I go to a medium-sized Catholic Church. From the back you can barely see the Priest. If its a special day you will struggle to get a seat, it shocked me to think that there were that many people locally who were strong enough in their beliefs to go every Sunday.

Don’t forget our large (but vocally silent) Muslim communities here. Unfortunately they’re not treated very well, and our newspapers are often ready to be offended on their behalf! (for example, we get stories in local/national newspapers etc about Muslims being offended by something, and then a day or so later an Imam or Muslim community leader is quoted as basically saying “Um, no we’re not, since when?”) It all comes down to some of our newspapers being racist and trying to portay Muslims as people who refuse to integrate and who are doing things like insulting the Queen (when they’re not).

In my experience, about 10-12 years ago when I was in primary school (I’m 20 now) we would say prayers before lessons, before morning break, before lunchtime, before we went home. My sister is 7 years younger than me, and when she went to that school she did nothing of the sort.

Now only a couple of years ago when I was in 6th form (studying A-levels) I only knew say maybe 1 or 2 friends who were religious, and they still believed in evolution.

But yes, I think on the face of it we are deeply atheist as a country. Politicians are scared of revealing any religious beliefs (Tony Blair did not disclose he was a Catholic for many years) because they would lose a lot of votes. Any parties which expressly talk about supporting the family, “British” religions (e.g, not Muslim) are generally regarded as racist radicals who are out of touch with real people - and to be honest, they are. It however does have the knock-on effect of making pro-life groups seem to be “religious nutcases” who are campaigning against “our freedoms”.

I think its important though to reiterate for the Americans on this thread that in the UK, abortion is a lot more limited. Here you can only have an abortion up to a certain point in the pregnancy - beyond that, you need two doctors to agree that the child is either going to “suffer” in life (disabilities etc) or that the mother’s health is in question. My understanding is that there is no such restriction in America.

Also, the time limit for having an abortion has recently been reduced in this country, by as much as 4 weeks. I think this is because the baby would have such a high survival rate if the mother was induced at the limit it was previously, if that makes sense.