Pro-choice saints?

[mlchance]

The question was were there any pro choice saints and I contributed by giving the point that Augustine didn’t think life begins at conception.

Which hardly makes Augustine pro-abortion.

If you are calling me pro abortion, you’re accusing me of being a murderer. I resent that.

Perhaps rather than being resentful you’ll find more peace of mind in being more charitable with your inferences.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[grampben]

Which hardly makes Augustine pro-abortion.

Perhaps rather than being resentful you’ll find more peace of mind in being more charitable with your inferences.

– Mark L. Chance.

I don’t think I was the one being uncharitable. I didn’t say he was pro abortion, I was just adding to the discussion. If I accused you of murder, I’m sure you’d be resentful.
Why don’t you try charity, sir?

 

[mlchance]

I don’t think I was the one being uncharitable.

Then why assume I was maligning your character when my comments were clearly directed at those who are pro-abortion?

If I accused you of murder, I’m sure you’d be resentful.

I’m sure you’d be wrong. I don’t know you well enough to care about your opinions of me.

Why don’t you try charity, sir?

Thank you. I shall.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[sidonius]

There have never been "pro-choice"saints. The point of ensoulment is irrelevant. The Church does not teach that ensoulment occurs at the time of conception. No saint can be “pro-choice” i.e., pro abort. This goes to one of the earliest documents in Christendom, the Didache. As Casey Stengel said, “Ya could look it up.”

 

[Holly3278]

Sorry but there are no pro-murder saints that exist. Why would you want to know if such a saint exists anyway?

 

[Janet_S]

Sorry but there are no pro-murder saints that exist. Why would you want to know if such a saint exists anyway?

I wanted to know because over 50% of Catholics are pro-choice Catholics and voted for Obama.

I agree with you, I can’t imagine a saint with the attitude of, I’m personally opposed, but. . . Still, these pro-choicers say they are Catholics, so they must be aware of the saints and that we look to them as our role models and that we are all called to be saints.

So I’m still wondering how is it possible for a person to call himself a Catholic, look up to saints as role models, and still think it’s fine to have a pro-choice attitude.

 

[adrift]

I wanted to know because over 50% of Catholics are pro-choice Catholics and voted for Obama.

I agree with you, I can’t imagine a saint with the attitude of, I’m personally opposed, but. . . Still, these pro-choicers say they are Catholics, so they must be aware of the saints and that we look to them as our role models and that we are all called to be saints.

So I’m still wondering how is it possible for a person to call himself a Catholic, look up to saints as role models, and still think it’s fine to have a pro-choice attitude.

I am curious where you get the 50% figure? Just because they voted for Obama does that make them pro choice? I have rarely run into those who says abortion is o.k. So I wonder about your figures.

 

[Janet_S]

I am curious where you get the 50% figure? Just because they voted for Obama does that make them pro choice? I have rarely run into those who says abortion is o.k. So I wonder about your figures.

I’ve hear the report that around 52% of Catholics voted for Obama.

Anyone who voted for Obama is not that concerned about abortion. Anyone who is concerned about abortion would never vote for someone like Obama.

Just like anyone who votes for a KKK member is not concerned about civil rights, and anyone who is concerned about civil rights would never vote for a KKK member.

 

[Gamera]

I’ve hear the report that around 52% of Catholics voted for Obama.

Anyone who voted for Obama is not that concerned about abortion. Anyone who is concerned about abortion would never vote for someone like Obama.

Just like anyone who votes for a KKK member is not concerned about civil rights, and anyone who is concerned about civil rights would never vote for a KKK member.

That isn’t the same as being “pro-choice.” You’re assuming that any Catholic who voted for Obama is pro-choice. It’s much more likely that a Catholic who voted for Obama did so despite Obama’s position on abortion, not because of it.

 

[Janet_S]

That isn’t the same as being “pro-choice.” You’re assuming that any Catholic who voted for Obama is pro-choice. It’s much more likely that a Catholic who voted for Obama did so despite Obama’s position on abortion, not because of it.

If I told you I was a champion for civil rights, yet I voted for someone who would take away voting rights from minorities and would re-establish and enforce segregation in the schools and in the workplace, would you consider me a civil-rights crusader? Oh, but I had other reasons for voting for him; he had a good economic package and said he would end the war, so I’ll overlook his civil rights policies, which I don’t agree with. But I still consider myself a strong supporter of civil rights. We may have some setbacks, but my intentions are good, so it’s all okay.

Likewise, if I told you I was pro-life, yet I voted for Obama even though I was fully aware of his campaign promise to pass FOCA, his voting record to oppose the Illinois born alive protection act, and his 100% approval rating from NARAL and Planned Parenthood, do you really think I’m that concerned about abortion? Oh, but I had other reasons for voting for him; he has a good economic package and promises to end the war and to provide us with “change”. I still consider myself pro-life, even though his goal is to abolish every law against abortion and to increase spending on abortion in our country and throughout the world. We may have some setbacks in the pro-life movement, but my intentions are good, so it’s all okay.

I’m just saying people can claim they’re pro-life or pro-choice or pro-civil rights or any number of things. But the way they vote says much more than their words. People who voted for Obama just don’t think abortion is that big of a deal. To them, there are lots of things that are much more important. When you as a voter look at it this way, with abortion a very low-priority issue, you are pro-choice. Yes, I think everyone who voted for Obama is pro-choice. I stand by that.

 

[Geremia]

Does anyone know of a pro-choice, canonized saint or blessed?

This is why Dorothy Day could never be a saint; she had an abortion. No saint has nor will ever be pro-abortion.

 

[Beltany13]

Yes, I think everyone who voted for Obama is pro-choice. I stand by that.

I’m sorry, but that’s absurd. With that same reasoning one can conclude that anyone who voted for McCain is pro-war.

Let’s not forget a few things: 1). Most common cause of abortion, or so it’s reported, is economic insecurity. Democrats spend more on social programs that work; and 2). Many staunch pro-lifers have been voting Republican since Roe v. Wade over thirty years ago, yet abortion is still legal. At one time, the Republicans controlled the White House, Congress, and the Supreme Court, yet the best we could do was a ban on partial-birth abortion. Don’t get me wrong, that was a very nice step - but it wasn’t enough.

Perhaps people are tired of voting for a party that never does anything about an issue they supposedly care about, so instead opted to vote for a candidate whose policies will, undoubtedly, reduce the number of abortions.

When you can’t treat the fallen nature of man, and in today’s secular society that appears unlikely, then perhaps treating the environment is the best we can do.

 

[mlchance]

Let’s not forget a few things: 1). Most common cause of abortion, or so it’s reported, is economic insecurity. Democrats spend more on social programs that work…

That is quite suspect to serious questioning.

2). Many staunch pro-lifers have been voting Republican since Roe v. Wade over thirty years ago, yet abortion is still legal. At one time, the Republicans controlled the White House, Congress, and the Supreme Court, yet the best we could do was a ban on partial-birth abortion.

No, that is not all that has been accomplished.

Perhaps people are tired of voting for a party that never does anything about an issue they supposedly care about, so instead opted to vote for a candidate whose policies will, undoubtedly, reduce the number of abortions.

Nonsense. If the Obama administration gets its way, the number of abortions will increase not only in America but around the world. Rates of activity X don’t decrease when that activity is legal and paid for by the government.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Corki]

If I told you I was a champion for civil rights, yet I voted for someone who would take away voting rights from minorities and would re-establish and enforce segregation in the schools and in the workplace, would you consider me a civil-rights crusader? Oh, but I had other reasons for voting for him; he had a good economic package and said he would end the war, so I’ll overlook his civil rights policies, which I don’t agree with. But I still consider myself a strong supporter of civil rights. We may have some setbacks, but my intentions are good, so it’s all okay.

Likewise, if I told you I was pro-life, yet I voted for Obama even though I was fully aware of his campaign promise to pass FOCA, his voting record to oppose the Illinois born alive protection act, and his 100% approval rating from NARAL and Planned Parenthood, do you really think I’m that concerned about abortion?

I appreciate what you are trying to do but you shifted your premise mid-thread.

1. Being Catholic isn’t necessarily the same as being a champion for life issues. While I have only met one pro-abortion practicing Catholic, many Catholics, including most of those (IMO) who voted for BO just don’t think abortion is a big deal.
2. Your civil rights analogy is flawed. A better parallel would be ’
   “if I told you I sort of agreed with civil rights on a philosophical level but didn’t want to force anyone else to to share my beliefs, but still voted for some who was a segregationist…”
3. The statistics about Catholics who voted for BO includes CINO and cultural Catholics. I don’t think that group is more pro-life than the general population. According to the USCCB site, only a little over 35% of self identified Catholics even attend weekly Mass. In the 2004 election cycle this group polled overwhelmingly pro-life.

 

[grampben]

This is why Dorothy Day could never be a saint; she had an abortion. No saint has nor will ever be pro-abortion.

Oh now come on. She had an abortion when she was young, but then she returned to catholicism.

Saints aren’t saints because they led sinless lives - look at St Augustine of Hippo (especially ‘confessions’). But a common characteristic is a turning to faith, and a beginning to break away from that sin.

If you are saying that anyone who has sinned cannot be a saint, then there are very very few saints, as ‘All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God’.

 

[Geremia]

Oh now come on. She had an abortion when she was young, but then she returned to catholicism.

I do not know if she was pro-choice or not, but if she truly converted to Catholicism, she cannot be.

Saints aren’t saints because they led sinless lives - look at St Augustine of Hippo (especially ‘confessions’). But a common characteristic is a turning to faith, and a beginning to break away from that sin.

I agree, but still a saint will not, at the end of his or her life, be pro-choice. Being pro-choice is an offense against God.

If you are saying that anyone who has sinned cannot be a saint, then there are very very few saints, as ‘All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God’.

Yes, there would just be St. Mary.

 

[grampben]

I do not know if she was pro-choice or not, but if she truly converted to Catholicism, she cannot be.I agree, but still a saint will not, at the end of his or her life, be pro-choice. Being pro-choice is an offense against God.Yes, there would just be St. Mary.

But having an abortion does not make one pro choice. Your statement was that she cannot ever be a saint because she had an abortion.

 

[Geremia]

But having an abortion does not make one pro choice. Your statement was that she cannot ever be a saint because she had an abortion.

I only heard that was one reason why she in particular could not be a saint; maybe she never repented of the sin? I am not as knowledgeable as those in the Vatican who decide whom to beatify or canonize.

 

[mlchance]

I only heard that was one reason why she in particular could not be a saint; maybe she never repented of the sin? I am not as knowledgeable as those in the Vatican who decide whom to beatify or canonize.

Hear from whom? Anyone whose words matter on the topic? Perhaps time would be better spent praying for her rather than bad-mouthing her?

And remember: If Dorothy Day is in Heaven or in Purgatory, then she’s a saint.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[somervia]

Saint Gianna Beretta Molla (October 4, 1922 – April 28, 1962) was an Italian pediatrician, wife and mother who is best known for refusing both an abortion and a hysterectomy when she was pregnant with her fourth child, despite knowing that continuing with the pregnancy could result in her death. She was canonized as a saint in 2004.