Pro life but liberal on social, justice issues?

[koda]

cbpp.org/12-20-05bud.htm cbpp.org/pubs/fedbud.htm

The above links from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. Here is a little about the Center:

Over the past two decades, the Center has gained a reputation for producing materials that are balanced, authoritative, accessible to non-specialists, and responsive to issues currently before the country. Our materials are used by policymakers and non-profit organizations across the political spectrum, as well as by journalists from a variety of media outlets.

If you look at the reports it is easy to see that cuts are deepest in the programs that the poor depend on the most. You will also see that tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans and for corporations just keep getting bigger. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

For those of you who champion programs that promote personal responsibility, the below link is to a report that describes how this budget undermines those very goals.
cbpp.org/11-7-05bud.htm

This is a Republican budget and it is typical of Republican budgets, which is why they have a reputation as the rich man’s party. We have 100,000 homeless people in Los Angeles, many are women and children and U.S. Veterans. This is just flat out wrong. Imagine the contrast in a city with homes that go for $30 million. So for as what the gov. it doing for the “least of mine”, it leaves a lot to be desired. And while we fool around debating what to do, these people are suffering and dying. IMO, this is no Christian budget.

 

[mlchance]

rlg94086:

Being that the President and majorities of both the House and Senate were elected by the majority and the majority aren’t rich, it doesn’t make much sense to say the “Republicans” only represent the rich.

I was especially heartened by arguments from the last presidential election that kept harping on how President Bush’s tax cuts benefited only the wealthy. Who knew that then, when I was making less than $25K annually and my taxes were cut more than once, that I was one of the wealthy? It’s a good thing the Democrats, the majority of whom were in favor of repealing the tax cuts, didn’t win Congress or the White House, or else wealthy people like me would’ve really been shown what for.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Knight003]

I qualified for EITC in 2003 and 2004, thanks to Bush’s tax cuts for the “rich”!

 

[goofyjim]

I’ll just chime in that I have felt this way for some time. I do feel that the abortion issue is number one but if a prolife democrat came along I would be strongly tempted to vote for him/her. Even though I did benefit from the tax cuts I see homeless and those who are disabled being cast aside by the Republican party. They may win elections based on morality but morality concerns more than just sexual mores. It also involves helping the poor. I fidn when I vote for the Republican I am basically voting for the lesser of two evils.

 

[Forest-Pine]

Mt 25,

I’m not sure if you posted here because you know the following or because you were wondering the Catholic stance on it, so I am going to approach this as if you do not know.

Catholics are traditionally a strong-hold for the Democratic vote because of our stance on social justice. Understandably, it is only in the last several decades that abortion has become a political issue. As such, Catholics are now a key swing group. Frankly, we are divided. You can see that in this thread and you can see that in the political arena. Without the support of Catholics crossing over to join hands with Evengelicals, Bush would have never won the presidency. It was his stance on abortion alone that put him in office.

Now the church doesn’t tell us which political party to vote for. As a matter of fact, it has condemned those ideologies which painted Christ as a “political” figure such as liberation theology. While supporting the poor is definitly important, we can not limit Christ’s message to them alone as that diminshes Christ’s universality.

Being pro-life and for social justice or pro-life and against the death penalty means that you are not going to find a political party that meets all your needs. So you must prioritize the issues and discern the candidates’ stances and vote for the person who most closely aligns with those priorities. We Catholics have pro-life and social justice up there pretty high on the list! So it is nice to find some common ground with others who are like-minded.

 

[Matthew_25]

Hi folks,

Wow - more tremendously insightful and thought-provoking answers to my question! .

About a decade ago, I became partially physically disabled and unable to work full-time. I believed that this condition would be temporary, so I did not apply for government disability payments. But instead of my condition getting better, it has gotten progressively worse.

Because I didn’t immediately apply for disability benefits, I don’t qualify. If not for my dear wife of 27 years going to work every day as a teacher in an inner-city elementary school, I would probably be living in a homeless shelter.

This experience has given me a much-different perspective on the role of government in helping folks who are in need. I agree that this role is better fulfilled by religious organizations, but they either can’t or won’t (this is arguable) do the complete job. By the way, I am a protestant but the Catholic Church is much more charitable-oriented as a rule. This is one of the MANY things I admire about the Catholic Church and Catholics in general.

I agree that the government has often done a pretty poor job of implementing social programs, but where would poor and afflicted folks be if they could ONLY rely on religious organizations?

I see the gap widening between the poor/middle class and the wealthy in America, more than ever in my 52 years of living.

All of that said, how can I pull a lever to vote for a person who, like Clinton, would veto legislation to outlaw something as horrible as “partial birth abortion”?

The Pro-Life Democrats organization holds the only hope for me, I think, to have an expression of participating in democracy at the voting booth. They’re not very strong now, but hopefully will gain momentum in the years to come.

Last but not least, I agree with the friend who said he does not agree with capital punishment. I did prison ministry for many years and saw many, many lives changed by the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And these men and women are “walking testaments” to the transforming power of God’s love.

Sorry I’ve written a book here. Thanks again for all of your great comments!

                     Blessings, Matthew 25<

<

 

[mary_bobo]

Forest-Pine:

Mt 25,

I’m not sure if you posted here because you know the following or because you were wondering the Catholic stance on it, so I am going to approach this as if you do not know.

Catholics are traditionally a strong-hold for the Democratic vote because of our stance on social justice. Understandably, it is only in the last several decades that abortion has become a political issue. As such, Catholics are now a key swing group. Frankly, we are divided. You can see that in this thread and you can see that in the political arena. Without the support of Catholics crossing over to join hands with Evengelicals, Bush would have never won the presidency. It was his stance on abortion alone that put him in office.

I recall articles and polls saying that the main reason for Bush’s reelection was the safety of the country from terrorism. Abortion was certainly a reason but not the only reason. And some of us believe that there are many ways to help those in need, and that giving them the tools and opportunities to help themselves is a better way than continuing to give them everything. Do some people fall through the cracks? Of course they do. But any time you have to go through layers and layers of government (federal) to get things done, it almost never gets done efficiently or in the best way for those they are trying to help. The closer to the recipient that the aid is given, the better for the recipient. That’s why some of us believe in limiting the federal government and relying more on the states. And if one refers to the Constitution, we see that the founding fathers advocated just that by saying that the powers given the federal governmconcept.ent in the Constitution were few and that everything else is left to the states. How far we have come from that concept.

No political party has a monopoly on wanting to help our citizens. It is just a difference of opinion as to how to achieve this.Now the church doesn’t tell us which political party to vote for. As a matter of fact, it has condemned those ideologies which painted Christ as a “political” figure such as liberation theology. While supporting the poor is definitly important, we can not limit Christ’s message to them alone as that diminshes Christ’s universality.

Being pro-life and for social justice or pro-life and against the death penalty means that you are not going to find a political party that meets all your needs. So you must prioritize the issues and discern the candidates’ stances and vote for the person who most closely aligns with those priorities. We Catholics have pro-life and social justice up there pretty high on the list! So it is nice to find some common ground with others who are like-minded.

 

[rlg94086]

It sounds like we are in agreement for the most part on the role of government and charitable organizations. As I said in my earlier post, it’s not an either-or proposition.

In your case, it sounds like the problem is not with government lacking a program, rather it’s with the bureaucratic requirements of that program (the timing of your request for aid). I think most voters are against bureaucracy as a general rule. If the government is going to run a program, it should be efficient and serve the people it was created to serve.

God Bless,

Robert
Matthew 25:

Hi folks,

Wow - more tremendously insightful and thought-provoking answers to my question! .

About a decade ago, I became partially physically disabled and unable to work full-time. I believed that this condition would be temporary, so I did not apply for government disability payments. But instead of my condition getting better, it has gotten progressively worse.

Because I didn’t immediately apply for disability benefits, I don’t qualify. If not for my dear wife of 27 years going to work every day as a teacher in an inner-city elementary school, I would probably be living in a homeless shelter.

This experience has given me a much-different perspective on the role of government in helping folks who are in need. I agree that this role is better fulfilled by religious organizations, but they either can’t or won’t (this is arguable) do the complete job. By the way, I am a protestant but the Catholic Church is much more charitable-oriented as a rule. This is one of the MANY things I admire about the Catholic Church and Catholics in general.

I agree that the government has often done a pretty poor job of implementing social programs, but where would poor and afflicted folks be if they could ONLY rely on religious organizations?

I see the gap widening between the poor/middle class and the wealthy in America, more than ever in my 52 years of living.

All of that said, how can I pull a lever to vote for a person who, like Clinton, would veto legislation to outlaw something as horrible as “partial birth abortion”?

The Pro-Life Democrats organization holds the only hope for me, I think, to have an expression of participating in democracy at the voting booth. They’re not very strong now, but hopefully will gain momentum in the years to come.

Last but not least, I agree with the friend who said he does not agree with capital punishment. I did prison ministry for many years and saw many, many lives changed by the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And these men and women are “walking testaments” to the transforming power of God’s love.

Sorry I’ve written a book here. Thanks again for all of your great comments!

Blessings, Matthew 25<
<

 

[Matthew_25]

Hi,

Thanks for all of your good answers.

Now, another question. John Kerry running as a “pro-choice” candidate.

If Catholic belief is that you are to follow directives of the Vatican on moral issues, why is Kerry allowed to continue to be a member of the Catholic Church?

Also, other prominent Catholic politicians such as Edward Kennedy?

I could understand it if they have repented for their support for the killing of unborn children, but to my knowledge, none have…

Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[YinYangMom]

Matthew 25:

Hi,Now, another question. John Kerry running as a “pro-choice” candidate.

If Catholic belief is that you are to follow directives of the Vatican on moral issues, why is Kerry allowed to continue to be a member of the Catholic Church?

Also, other prominent Catholic politicians such as Edward Kennedy?
Thanks.

As for why they are allowed to continue to be members of the Catholic Church, this is what I read in The Faith of Our Fathers by James Cardinal Gibbons (originally written in 1876) which helped me remember why there remain so many lost Catholics in the Church (emphasis, mine):

Pg 19-20:

"It is easy to explain why so many disedifying members are always found clinging to the robes of the Church, their spiritual Mother, and why she never shakes them off nor disowns them as her children. The Church is animated by the spirit of her Founder, Jesus Christ. He “came into this world to save sinners.” He “came not to cal the just but sinners to repentance.” He was the Friend of Publicans and Sinners that He might make them the friends of God. And they clung to Him, knowing His compassion for them.

The Church, walking in the footsteps of her Divine Spouse, never repudiates sinners nor cuts them off from her fold, no matter how greivous or notorious may be their moral delinquencies; not because she connives at their sin, but because she wishes to reclaim them. She bids them never to despair, and tries, at least, to weaken their passions, if she cannot altogether reform their lives.

Mindful also of the words of our Lord: “The poor have the Gospel preached to them,” the Church has a tender compassion for the victims of poverty, which has its train of peculiar temptations and infirmities. Hence, the poor and the sinners cling to the Church, as they clung to our Lord during His mortal life."

 

[Knight003]

It is my understanding that Bishops have dominion in their respective dioceses. The Vatican acknowledges this, and tries to respect it. Many pro-choice politicians have been asked not to receive Holy Communion when in the dioceses by the Bishops of those dioceses. So in this current environment it is up to the Bishops of these politicians’ home dioceses, and as long as they do not travel into another where they have been asked not to receive, they are ok. I’m trying to fully understand this as well, so if anybody understands this better, please speak up.

 

[buffalo]

Matthew 25:

Hi,

Thanks for all of your good answers.

Now, another question. John Kerry running as a “pro-choice” candidate.

If Catholic belief is that you are to follow directives of the Vatican on moral issues, why is Kerry allowed to continue to be a member of the Catholic Church?

Also, other prominent Catholic politicians such as Edward Kennedy?

I could understand it if they have repented for their support for the killing of unborn children, but to my knowledge, none have…

Any thoughts? Thanks.

By his public stance he has excommunicated himself.

 

[koda]

Knight003:

I qualified for EITC in 2003 and 2004, thanks to Bush’s tax cuts for the “rich”!

That may be, but the truth remains that the vast majority of people who benefited the most were in the top 5% of of income earners. But as long as you’re happy with the little you got, instead of upset that you didn’t get more, more low income people didn’t benefit, or that the rich got a much larger proportional share of the pie, then they (the rich) do’t have to worry about their future.

 

[mlchance]

koda:

That may be, but the truth remains that the vast majority of people who benefited the most were in the top 5% of of income earners.

Yet another person who doesn’t understand taxation.

The top 5% of income earners pay the majority of taxes, and do so at a higher rate than those who earn less money. Bothering to simply reflect on basic math would readily reveal that someone who pays, say, 30% of $250,000 is going to get a larger refund from a 2% tax cut than someone who pays, say, 15% of $25,000.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[aurora77]

Matthew 25:

Hi,

Thanks for all of your good answers.

Now, another question. John Kerry running as a “pro-choice” candidate.

If Catholic belief is that you are to follow directives of the Vatican on moral issues, why is Kerry allowed to continue to be a member of the Catholic Church?

Also, other prominent Catholic politicians such as Edward Kennedy?

I could understand it if they have repented for their support for the killing of unborn children, but to my knowledge, none have…

Any thoughts? Thanks.

The biggest reason that I would not vote for Kerry was that I felt he was making a public mockery of my faith. The Bible and Church teaching are very clear that abortion is wrong, yet he publicly supports abortion and pretends to be a good Catholic; I felt like he was publicly distorting the truths of our faith; many people could be deceived that it’s OK to be pro-abortion and Catholic. Very, very offensive.

Welcome to these forums, Matthew! I work in a group of three people, I’m the Catholic, the other two are protestant. We were just talking yesterday about how, if all Christians could put aside their doctrinal differences and work together for social justice in this country, things would be very different. It’s very heartening to have a protestant like you here discussing these issues.

 

[Knight003]

koda:

That may be, but the truth remains that the vast majority of people who benefited the most were in the top 5% of of income earners. But as long as you’re happy with the little you got, instead of upset that you didn’t get more, more low income people didn’t benefit, or that the rich got a much larger proportional share of the pie, then they (the rich) do’t have to worry about their future.

I guess the question is: when is fair, fair enough? EITC is a tax credit, which is calculated without regard to withholdings. So basically, this resulted is a refund check which was larger than my withholdings were in the first place. I got more back than the government took! I feel that this actually goes beyond fair. I don’t know what else can be done. Bush’s tax cut lowered my taxes so low that I paid a negative federal rate.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes. But for liberals to think it’s fair, in your example, the latter person needs a 720% tax credit to make things fair (they would both net $180k then). It’s not their fault they couldn’t qualify as an attorney with their high school diploma! It’s all the President’s fault…and Walmart and Big Oil, of course.

mlchance:

Yet another person who doesn’t understand taxation.

The top 5% of income earners pay the majority of taxes, and do so at a higher rate than those who earn less money. Bothering to simply reflect on basic math would readily reveal that someone who pays, say, 30% of $250,000 is going to get a larger refund from a 2% tax cut than someone who pays, say, 15% of $25,000.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Matthew_25]

“Welcome to these forums, Matthew! I work in a group of three people, I’m the Catholic, the other two are protestant. We were just talking yesterday about how, if all Christians could put aside their doctrinal differences and work together for social justice in this country, things would be very different. It’s very heartening to have a protestant like you here discussing these issues…”​

Blessings to this friend and all of you,

I am an evangelical Christian and most folks who fall into that category are very socially conservative, pro war, pro capital punishment, not enthusiastic about social justice.

I do think that those of us who embrace the opposite values - who feel saddened and disheartened that up to 100,000 Iraqis have died in this war along with the many hundreds of youg America soldiers - we SHOULD ignore doctrinal differences and unite as Christians of compassion, Catholic and protestant.

It is my belief that respect for life has no limit, including respect for the lives of other living creatures. For that reason, following the example of St. Francis of Assisi, I am a complete vegetarian.

           Love in Christ to all,  Matthew 25

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