Pro-Life Catholics, how do you respond to this?

[Erikaspirit16]

God gave us the right to choose where and when we are charitable

You are right. We have the right to choose between good and evil.

As for the rest of your post…

 

[Sundiver]

That would depend on what you define as evil. I wonder?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

The lot of illegal aliens, the poor, and the disadvantaged may well be bad. And we should do things to help them when they are being mistreated. But they aren’t being A) actively dehumanized and B) killed.

I guess you haven’t been reading / watching the news lately.

Not actively de-humanized? So being told to drink from the toilet is OK? No showers for weeks on end is OK? Being packed like sardines in a detention center is OK? Really?

As for deaths…there have been way too many, both crossing the border and after being held in US custody. No one should be dying in US custody. And yet they are. Why?

I reject the idea that havine one issue is necessarily a bad thing.

So let’s say you’re a normal person and you go to confession. But all your life you have focused on one issue: profanity. You confess that regularly and obsess over it. But you ignore all your other sins. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[choose_to_love]

I think you have the correct citation and I suggest that the evaluation of whether proportionate reasons exist is a matter of prudential judgment, ultimately; however, there are a million abortions every year. What possible proportionate reason could there be? If all Catholic voters who are employing the application of the above principle of proportionate reasons changed their analysis, it could effect a real change with respect to this issue. At least it would be worth a try.

 

[farronwolf]

The idea of voting for a candidate based on a single issue, especially pro-life or pro-choice is fundamentally immoral in my view. First, Roe vs Wade is settled law and upheld by precedent. The only way to overturn the current law is via a Constitutional amendment.

No President, member of Congress, or Supreme Court justice can affect the current law. So voting for someone based on their stated opinion on whether they agree or disagree with something they can not change is not a valid reason. Voting for for a candidate based on their views on things they can affect is a valid moral argument. They can based on legislation, or policy affect whether or not we go to war, how we treat those less fortunate in our society, how we care for our planet, whether people are put before profit, and on and on. Those are things they can affect so those matters should be considered.

We can determine whether or not based on public knowledge whether or not the politician is of good moral character. Whether or not you agree with their political views has no determination on the persons moral character. If a person is not of good moral character, they will not be acting in the best interest of others, they will simply act in their own best interest, which is not what I want in someone tasked to lead our country. This is something they have control over.

In Proverbs 6:16-19 is specifically tells us what is unacceptable to God. 16 Six things I will tell thee, and name a seventh for good measure, the Lord hates and will never abide; 17 the haughty look, the lying tongue, the hands that take innocent life, 18 the heart that ever devises thoughts of mischief, the feet that hasten upon an ill errand, 19 the false witness whose every breath is perjury, and the sower of strife among brethren.

So if someone is running for office and displays some or all of these characteristics, they should not be supported, period. These are things they can control personally, and if they choose to act against what God says is acceptable, how can we ignore these simply because they say they are pro-life or pro-choice or whatever, which they can not change. Again, that is settled law and it is up to the American people alone to change current precedent by an amendment.

My take on the matter, I am certain others will disagree totally, but that is their call. I am 100% pro life, however our country is not, and no politician is going to change that.

 

[midori]

What about those who have no one or whose issues may overwhelm their own circle specially since of the poorer and working classes have a cohort who may be struggling themselves?

Indeed. That was what I was getting at with my caveat, without getting too far into the weeds.

But, going to real-life examples, ignoring generalities— I’m easily short six figures, due to other people’s struggles to keep their lives together, their poor choices, and their misplaced priorities.

I try not to think about it much. It wouldn’t do me any good, and I doubt they waste a moment feeling sorry for me! But the thing is— they have to live with themselves and a whole lifetime of poor choices and misplaced priorities. I get to move on from an ugly experience and try to start over with better success.

So, yeah. “Poverty” isn’t just “I don’t have money”, but it’s “I lack resources.” And the more resources you lack-- a support network, relationships/role models, good health, the ability to communicate in a situation-appropriate manner, knowledge of society’s hidden rules, emotional resources, spiritual resources, mental/cognitive resources… the more of those you lack, the harder success is to come by.

But those people who cost me so much---- they could have had twice as much outside program assistance as they had, and they still wouldn’t have been any better off. Because the root of their problems wasn’t a lack of financial resources that could be solved by a government program— the root of their problems was much, much, much closer to home.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Fetus don’t have rights legally either so that’s a bad approach. I would at least dismiss it in a way that acknowledges their situation.

 

[goout]

RCIAGraduate:

What about those who have no one or whose issues may overwhelm their own circle specially since of the poorer and working classes have a cohort who may be struggling themselves?

Indeed. That was what I was getting at with my caveat, without getting too far into the weeds.

But, going to real-life examples, ignoring generalities— I’m easily short six figures, due to other people’s struggles to keep their lives together, their poor choices, and their misplaced priorities.

I try not to think about it much. It wouldn’t do me any good, and I doubt they waste a moment feeling sorry for me! But the thing is— they have to live with themselves and a whole lifetime of poor choices and misplaced priorities. I get to move on from an ugly experience and try to start over with better success.

So, yeah. “Poverty” isn’t just “I don’t have money”, but it’s “I lack resources.” And the more resources you lack-- a support network, relationships/role models, good health, the ability to communicate in a situation-appropriate manner, knowledge of society’s hidden rules, emotional resources, spiritual resources, mental/cognitive resources… the more of those you lack, the harder success is to come by.

But those people who cost me so much---- they could have had twice as much outside program assistance as they had, and they still wouldn’t have been any better off. Because the root of their problems wasn’t a lack of financial resources that could be solved by a government program— the root of their problems was much, much, much closer to home.

Very insightful. I just wanted to quote it thanks.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

even throwing others under the bus specially undocumented immigrants, the poor and disadvantaged who rely on social resources or a better holistic agenda specially within today’s two party paradigm?

The flip side is throwing the fetus under the bus so either way there are problems.

 

[goout]

In the mentoring work that I do money is a moot point.
Money will not solve anything in the situation I am trying to help. The problems range from electronics addiction, stunted intellectual growth, lack of work ethic, inability to read, lack of initiative, racism.
These problems are not the responsibility of the child, but they are surely going to perpetuate themselves and money will not solve a thing.

The household has plenty of work available and plenty (a glut actually) of educational resources available.
The “human resources” are what are lacking. Virtues. Confidence. Initiative. etc…

In short, what these children need is a mother who has the wisdom to say “get up off your duff, we are going to do chores together, and then we are doing homeowork.”

 

[JimG]

If I had lived in the Civil War era, I might have voted based on the slavery issue alone, even though there were a lot of other issues to consider at the time.

 

[Sundiver]

Fetus don’t have rights legally

Actually I meant this to be separate from the illegal aliens question. My mistake.

Regardless of how anyone votes, abortion is the murder of an innocent child.

However, the rights of the unborn are usually determined by the mother. This way of interpreting the constitution was determined by the same Kangaroo court system that gave us the Jim Crow laws based on the question of what the definition of what a human being is. Some bizarre quirk of their thinking brought us to the notion that we can define what is human based on convenience not truth. This is a disaster of government and it’s blind followers who make deities of their politicians, also, based on convenience not truth.

I’m not sure what you mean by this?

I would at least dismiss it in a way that acknowledges their situation.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I’m not sure what you mean by this?

I would at least dismiss it in a way that acknowledges their situation

I think it would do good to show some concern for the illegal immigrants even if it’s not possible to help them or if there is disagreements in approaches.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

In the mentoring work that I do money is a moot point.

@midori as well.

But isn’t it possible for money to set up and support mentors and such initiatives? Imagine the potential if we gave a hundred billion to such initiatives.

Also, more money can purchase smaller classes as well as school-based counselors, psychologists and social workers who can keep tabs and guide students specially those in need. Appropriations can assist in the establishment of other initiatives that build up community such as this or other social resources.

 

[MikeInVA]

What about those who have no one or whose issues may overwhelm their own circle specially since of the poorer and working classes have a cohort who may be struggling themselves?

Rules apply in general, exceptions apply to the specific.

 

[Sundiver]

We can’t ignore the ,“elephant in the room.” The primary issue involving illegal aliens is the threat to freedom. The illegal alien issue is not what the Democrat party is about. They were against illegal aliens and they voted for the construction of a wall. Sooooooooooo. What happened? Trump gets elected and all of a sudden they don’t want a wall. “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.” Can you elaborate on what our responsibility is concerning this mercurial issue?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Can you elaborate on what our responsibility is concerning this mercurial issue?

I just think sweeping aside illegal immigrants problems might not be good in a discussion or not mentioning them. As for approaches, I’m not sure.

 

[farronwolf]

How do illegal aliens threaten your freedom? Do you know when we started to restrict immigration to this country and why? It was for prejudicial reason.

What happened in 1986, when Reagan was in office, and what has the trend been since then? This has not been a party issue until a particular candidate said “I’m going to build a wall and Mexico is going to pay for it.”

Both parties need to address the laws that have been on the books since 1980 when our current asylum laws were enacted. For 40 years neither party has seriously tried to come up with a good solution, both for their own reasons.

As a Catholic one has to look at the life aspect of the issue, and making sure we respect the lives of those who want to enter this country to improve their lives. As a Catholic one must overlook the immigration status of the people when they come to Mass on Sunday. Too many have left the Catholic faith because they were not welcomed to worship as they were raised.

The comment “all of the sudden they don’t want the wall” is completely uninformed.

 

[midori]

But isn’t it possible for money to set up and support mentors and such initiatives? Imagine the potential if we gave a hundred billion to such initiatives.

Why wait for the government to do that?

Go out and make a difference yourself, right now, with what you have.

Don’t say, “Other people/the government needs to do something.”

Go out and be the change you want to see.

I tried that, too.

So, departing from generalities, and going to specifics—

Once upon a time, there was a woman. She said she wanted to “start over.” Her bf was in jail, and her relationship was toxic, and she wanted out. She was marginal, but I gave her the opportunity.

She cost me four figures by the time I found the reason her toilet was clogged was because it was stuffed full of condoms and drug needles that had gotten stuck in the curvy part of the innards.

I was ready to be rid of her, but she fell off the planet— leaving her young adult kid in possession of the house. For the first month, he didn’t know where she had gone; she had abandoned him, in addition to doing some other fun stuff that put him in a bad situation. (Ultimately, she had moved in with the bf she had been trying to flee.)

So rather than kicking him out, I tried to mentor him. I knew he used to be a gang member in his old city, but he had a local job, so that was a good thing. I tried helping him develop a plan, see how “normal people” looked at things, budget, and so on.

Oops, he couldn’t hold onto his job. The manager was a jerk and they got in an argument and he was fired, he said.

OK. So I helped him get another job. And helped him with some of the debts his mom had left him. And stuff.

All he was interested in was girls and recreational drugs.

He lost that new job within 2 weeks, too.

Then he got a third job. The guy who ran a local sandwich shop was feeding him free sandwiches, because he was struggling. He gave him a job, too. Guess who he asked to help him with the testing fee.

And he lost that job, for being unreliable.

I was about done with him. That’s when he hooked up with the wrong guy’s girlfriend. I’d never seen anyone in genuine fear of their life before. I gave him a place to hide for the night. In the morning, DH took off from work and gave him a ride to the airport, because he didn’t need to just flee the town, he needed to flee the entire state… I didn’t give him any money for a plane ticket, but he managed to scramble some funds together.

I had hoped that he and DH would have a nice chat in the car. DH and I had started off poor and one step from homelessness, but we’ve done well for ourselves. I hoped even if I couldn’t get through to him, maybe he could find something inspiring from DH. Instead, he spent the entire car trip talking about the legalization-of-recreational-drugs-in-Texas movement.

 

[midori]

I gave him the same chance I gave his mom, because he was trying to rise above his circumstances, and I figured I’d give him the chance-- and he ended up costing me four figures as well. But it was worth it, because when the day comes, I’m going to be judged on what I did for others, not on how others wasted the opportunity I offered.

But it also taught me-- you can’t mentor someone who doesn’t want to be mentored. It didn’t matter that he would go for two days without eating, or that he was going to be homeless, or “I need to maintain this awesome job so I can have the resources to rise above my circumstances”. He cared about girls and recreational drugs, even when they destroy him to the point that he needs to flee 2,000 miles away.

But the government isn’t going to solve his problems. Because his problems are closer to home than what any of the five or six or ten people who give him chances can do for him.