Pro-Life Catholics, how do you respond to this?

[midori]

In all modesty, you do not understand the pro-choice position.

If you read further, you’ll see I was specifically referring to the “global relief efforts” where food and medical aid are frequently tied directly to forced sterilizations, abortions, birth control, and so on.

But if we’re on the subject, yeah, I have plenty of friends who are very unflinchingly pro-abortion. They don’t make any bones about it. They celebrate the ultrasounds of women who want to have a baby and perceive it as a baby if she calls it a baby, but at the same time unflinchingly hold that anyone should be allowed to terminate their pregnancy at any point, for any reason or for no reason. They don’t perceive how anyone has an intrinsic value because of their Creator, or because of their Redeemer— but rather, an individual’s worth is directly tied to whether or not somebody wants them. And they don’t see the danger in that philosophy.

Sure, not everyone’s like that. But it’s silly to pretend they don’t exist, so I don’t.

 

[choose_to_love]

Oh, brother. In all honesty, yes we do understand the pro-abortion position; it appears you do not apprehend that the intentional killing of an innocent human, one’s own child no less, is evil. What ‘choice’, exactly, is one in favor of but the right to kill a defenseless child? It is not something to be considered when “all other avenues are exhausted”, it’s always wrong.

FWIW, we have two adoptions, one of another race, and our income was well under $100K at the time.

 

[RandomGuy]

This is why I wish we had a viable socially conservative fiscally liberal political party in the US. I think the closest would be something like the new deal democrats.

I usually abstain from voting now because I find both parties revolting for different reasons.

 

[midori]

FWIW, we have two adoptions, one of another race, and our income was well under $100K at the time.

That’s awesome!

Us, I’d love to help out with the foster system. I know there’s a lot of need in our area. But DH does work protecting the interests of kids in bad situations. And if I got involved with foster care, that would conflict him out. So even though it’s tough, rather than helping one or two kids over a period of time, I understand that we’re doing good by helping thirty or forty kids every year during a particularly trying crisis, where the outcome of that thing can frequently be a life-changing fork in the road for them… for the good and for the bad.

It’s his job to do his darnedest to make sure their path lies on the good side of life-changing.

So— I find other things that I’m able to do for other people, so as not to interfere with his good work.

 

[Roseszz]

I do believe Our Sainted Pope John Paul did call it a sin to VOTE and promote pro abortion candidates .
Many of them are today the abortion supposedly pro choice issue as more of a religion than platform and rebel at any effort to forestall abortion up to and including full term birth. Frankly this says they DO NOT believe all humans are equal …
They only push agendas that appear charitable to grow their voting base and themselves live in mansions behind gates .

We give to charities hopefully based on their outreach to the poor which is as Our Lord directed . Not enticement to get vores .

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Pro-choice means that abortion should not be considered until all other avenues are exhausted.

First I heard of that. I think you are presuming a sort of universal agreement among pro-choicers, but they are very different in their reasons.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

“In the early days of the Roman Republic, public taxes consisted of assessments on owned wealth and property. The tax rate under normal circumstances was 1% of property value, and could sometimes climb as high as 3% in situations such as war. These taxes were levied against land, homes and other real estate, slaves, animals, personal items and monetary wealth…After considerable Roman expansion in the 1st century, Augustus Caesar introduced a wealth tax of about 1%.” (“Progressive Taxes,” Wikipedia)

Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general welfare of the United States…" “General welfare” includes helping the poor.

From ancient times it has been the role of the government to tax the rich proportionately more than the poor and to use this money to help the poor.

If I buy a drug company that has a monopoly on a particular type of life-saving drug, does the “law of justice” tell me that I can raise the price of the drug from $10 a dose to $1,000 a dose? Or…is this “stealing from one person to pay off another” as you say? Sounds like stealing, not justice, to me.

Certainly that’s your opinion, but it doesn’t make it a fact.

And why would that be a bad thing?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

That is not quite the position, though, right?

Yes it is. Read the USCCB document. In other words, if there is a politician who favors a pro-choice position, but you’re going to vote for him because he promises to pave the road in front of your house, you shouldn’t do it. Paving a road is relatively trivial. But if a pro-choice politician promises to reform the immigration system to make it more just and humane, then you are justified in voting for them.

Again, if YOU don’t think that’s proportionate, that’s your decision. Vote how you like. But if I think it IS proportionate, I will also vote as I like.

 

[thistle]

Then obviously we have different interpretations. It seems clear to me…and the opposite seems clear to you. You vote your conscience, and I’ll vote mine.

I’m still curious why Jesus never mentioned abortion…after all, it was common in ancient Israel and Rome. And yet Jesus was preoccupied with the plight of the poor. Did he have the wrong priorities?

In Matthew 19:17

“And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill;”

How can it be any clearer than that???

 

[choose_to_love]

Thanks for the reply. Not sure why you are ‘again-ing’ me in your last paragraph; two sentences after the one you quoted, and elsewhere in this thread, I acknowledged that I think that the decision as to what proportionate reasons are is one of prudential judgment left up to the individual.

 

[choose_to_love]

Thanks for the kind words. It has certainly been a blessing for us.

My perception is that fostering, and particularly fostering to adopt, is not well thought out in my state, but that is probably a topic for a separate thread. May God reward you for the work you do.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Catholic teaching does speak of the duties of the state

“The state has a responsibility for its citizens’ well-being.”

The just government must step in when private charities are inadequate. Sadly, this is the case in many places.

While my city has robust charities at work, the poverty is far greater.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

“And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill;”

How can it be any clearer than that???

And yet we kill. And are given medals for it (soldiers, police…) It’s not clear at all.

And of course to be able to sin, we need full knowledge of what we are doing. We need to know it’s a sin. 80% (or more) of the world’s population don’t believe that abortion before certain points of development is murder. Therefore they cannot sin by having an abortion.

 

[TheLittleLady]

In Matthew 19:17

“And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill;”

How can it be any clearer than that???

That will be another reason to cast a vote for a candidate who will end the Federal death penalty. Executions are not pro-life.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Thanks for the reply. Not sure why you are ‘again-ing’ me in your last paragraph; two sentences after the one you quoted, and elsewhere in this thread, I acknowledged that I think that the decision as to what proportionate reasons are is one of prudential judgment left up to the individual.

Maybe I need to be more careful, but in an open forum like this, although I am “replying” to some comment, my reply is always addressed to everyone, not specifically aimed at a specific poster. Even when I say “you” it is almost always directed at “you” plural. If I say “again” I’m just pointing out that somewhere I’ve made the same point, not that I have previously made the point to you personally. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[thistle]

And yet we kill. And are given medals for it (soldiers, police…) It’s not clear at all.

And of course to be able to sin, we need full knowledge of what we are doing. We need to know it’s a sin. 80% (or more) of the world’s population don’t believe that abortion before certain points of development is murder. Therefore they cannot sin by having an abortion.

It is absolutely clear. The Commandment not to kill applies to unlawful killing. That does not apply to wars.
In war when an enemy is killed that is not murder and it is not a sin.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

They sin gravely. They aren’t as culpable… perhaps. Even the non-Christians have the light of conscience as St. Paul tells us.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.

The Vatican states also had the death penalty for abortion.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

The Vatican states also had the death penalty for abortion

But only for a certain definition of “abortion” at that time. As I pointed out earlier, the Church as a whole, and numerous theologians (Jerome, Augustine, Aquinas, et al.) made a distinction between terminating a pregnancy before a certain point and after a certain point. After a certain point was murder. Before, it was not. Just as most people in the world see it today.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

The Commandment not to kill applies to unlawful killing

And then we get into all sorts of detail about what is “unlawful.” Is a policeman shooting a man 16 times in the back when he’s running away “lawful”? Etc. This is an ongoing discussion in the US, and it’s far from “clear.” Even in law you can have manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, and 1st degree murder. Quite often it’s hard to determine. Whatever it is, I would never call it “clear.” It may be “clear” to God, but not to fallible human beings.

As I’ve said before, some people see the world as black and white. Others see it as shades of grey. I’m in the shades of grey camp.