Pro-Life Hypocrisy

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Swan said:
The problem I have with those pictures is that the deliberately suggest that the fetus felt pain, that it was a fully sentient being, the equal of a fully developed 9 mon. old. But this is not the case. The brain developes very slowly. The fetus does not suffer, has no consciousness. It is not the same as killing a “born” baby yet they suggest to the women that it is. No wonder there is trauma.
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So you’re arguing that it’s worse to murder a newborn than to kill a fetus? Is it then worse to murder an adult than a newborn?

The stage of development a fetus has reached is irrelevant to the fact that he or she is a human being.

Peace,
Dante
 
Swan said:
The problem I have with those pictures is that the deliberately suggest that the fetus felt pain, that it was a fully sentient being, the equal of a fully developed 9 mon. old. But this is not the case. The brain developes very slowly. The fetus does not suffer, has no consciousness. It is not the same as killing a “born” baby yet they suggest to the women that it is. No wonder there is trauma.
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Swan,

Your assumption is incorrect. Science has shown that pre-born humans can feel pain and also react to it the same way you and I react to pain.

Your statement that “the brain develops very slowly” is rather vague. More than a few scientists would argue that the level and amount of brain development in utero is simply amazing. This rate of growth slows down a little bit, but still remains quite strong until 4-5 years of age.
 
Howl said:
One of my main concerns is the Church’s devout support of the Pro Life movement. I believe in the sanctity of life. I even have difficulty eating meat because, frankly, we could grow so much more food if we didn’t have so much livestock.

My problem lies in the methods espoused by the Pro Life community. One of their major marketing methods is to juxtapose anti-abortion messages next to pictures of beautiful babies. Another one of their major marketing methods is to use extremely visceral descriptions of abortions. Take this horrible quote from www.abortionfacts.com

“This is like a breech delivery. The entire infant is delivered except the head. A scissors is jammed into the base of the skull. A tube is inserted into the skull, and the brain is sucked out. The now-dead infant is pulled out. The drawings illustrate this.”

That horrible description is combined with horribly graphic images which, frankly, I will spare you.
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This is abortion.

I am pro-choice and continue to support my stance with reason. What I do not like is that abortion is hidden away in secrecy for so long even though it is legal.

A woman needs to know what she is doing when she chooses this procedure. She needs to understand, what stage a fetus is at. If you take the life of a 5 month fetus, you have a human that has pain recepters, a rudimentary primal awarness. IE they feel their pain and death and they are quickly aware of it.

I think human development of an embryo is hidden and made a mystery when it should not be. Why is it so closed? Why can women do this procedure without being aware of what it is they are killing and their health risks?

Most humans know, killing another human is wrong. Most women are accutely attuned to their bodies baby making ability and to be shown a video of their fetus’s head pulled from the body without the rest…makes them uncomfortable.

It’s SUPPOSED to make us feel bad. Good grief and a good thing.

I am pro-choice and I alway’s will be but by golly I want women to KNOW what they are doing. If you are 4 months pregnant, and aborting you are not killing a collection of cells. Know what it is you do, and you will make the RIGHT choice for you and for the world…that’s my ideal.

Ignorance, helps no-one.

And abortion, at the certain time and place, to me is a part of life and necessary. I’m deeply sorry to those offended by it and I do, to a degree understand the hurt.

We will never agree, so let’s do what we can to support the women so they can make the choice we both think they really want to make. They want the baby. Let’s help them do that.
 
Dameedna,

How can you possibly defend your position with reason? There is no logical reason to EVER kill an innocent human being. The pro-choice position can NEVER be supported by reason, not ever. You even admit that it is a human and is being killed. How then, can you support abortion?

In Christ,
Rand
 
I’ve always heard that abortion was “okay” when the mother of the child was put at a major health risk, as in the mother would die if the baby was born or that both would die. However, I’ve also heard that these cases happen VERY rarely, although many pro-choice supporters tend to bring it up a lot. Unfortunately most abortions aren’t based on that cause - their based on the unwillingness to deal with consequences (like sex before marriage) or the unwillingness to raise a child or even just deliver one! But anyways – is it only me that finds it strange that pro-choice only gives you one choice - death, but pro-life gives you a variety of options - including adoption. and if its anyones arguement that parents should be able to abort a child who will have disabilities - never spent time with a disabled child or person. I have and some of the ones people think will “suffer” throughout their lives are the ones who are beautiful angels that bring joy to those around them. They are the ones that teach you what life is really all about. :hug1: Bottom line - everyone was the right to live, the right to breathe and smile and learn, and the right to love and be loved – i think it’s time we give every child that right instead of choosing for ourselves which of God’s children get to experience life on Earth and which don’t – we have free will of course but that doesn’t mean we should use it!!! 👍
 
Howl said:
Or perhaps she says, “where was the Catholic Church” when I was pressured into an abortion? Where were they when I was fu**ed into my gang and got pregnant during that indignity? Where were they when I was scared, confused, lost and felt all alone?
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And I would tell her that the Catholic Church was in Covenant House or Boy’s Town or any of the thousands of lesser known apostolates who work in the inner cities to reach out to gang members, street children and others in need. I would tell her they were in the Catholic counseling centers and outreach programs that support those who are scared, confused, lost and alone. I would tell her that the Church continues to be there for her in Rachel’s Vinyard and other organizations reaching out in love to post-abortive women. Being pro-life - more to the point being Catholic or Christian from any other denomination - is not just saying “no” to abortion. It includes reaching out to pregnant women in crisis. It also includes teaching the truth about sexuality to help people avoid pregnancy outside of marriage in the first place. The Church’s presence is comprehensive and dynamic.

As for showing these images, I agree with those in this thread who are saying that the truth needs to be shown. My alma mater just had an incident where a pro-choice student senator pulled out the crosses in a pro-life graves for the unborn display because he said that the graves were offensive and insensitive to women who had an abortion. Yet, an abortion is something that the woman chooses to do. Why is showing her the truth about her choice insensitive (we’re not talking about a woman who lost a baby in an accident here). Yes, it would be insensitive if we did not help her with the feelings of guilt and sorrow that such displays may conjure up. These women are not the target of such displays, but if the display helps them realize the truth about the choice they made, it may lead them to repentance and healing. Is that a bad thing?
 
Dameedna,

You must have realized that posting such a confession would get you “jumped on” in a forum like this - let us hope with reasonableness and charity.

You admit that abortion kills a human being who can feel pain, yet you think that doing so should be a choice. Does this mean that you think killing a human being is morally acceptable? Would your reason also accept infanticide or killing at other stages of life? Can you explain your position?
 
now that i look at it from that perspective - your statement about free will makes more sense than mine! well put blainetog! well put!!🙂
 
Before you took your first breath, everyone reading this began life as an embryo - a human embryo.

Taking a life is taking a life - a human life.

God bless,
Ed
 
Dameedna said:
This is abortion.

I am pro-choice and continue to support my stance with reason. What I do not like is that abortion is hidden away in secrecy for so long even though it is legal.

A woman needs to know what she is doing when she chooses this procedure. She needs to understand, what stage a fetus is at. If you take the life of a 5 month fetus, you have a human that has pain recepters, a rudimentary primal awarness. IE they feel their pain and death and they are quickly aware of it.

I think human development of an embryo is hidden and made a mystery when it should not be. Why is it so closed? Why can women do this procedure without being aware of what it is they are killing and their health risks?

Most humans know, killing another human is wrong. Most women are accutely attuned to their bodies baby making ability and to be shown a video of their fetus’s head pulled from the body without the rest…makes them uncomfortable.

It’s SUPPOSED to make us feel bad. Good grief and a good thing.

I am pro-choice and I alway’s will be but by golly I want women to KNOW what they are doing. If you are 4 months pregnant, and aborting you are not killing a collection of cells. Know what it is you do, and you will make the RIGHT choice for you and for the world…that’s my ideal.

Ignorance, helps no-one.

And abortion, at the certain time and place, to me is a part of life and necessary. I’m deeply sorry to those offended by it and I do, to a degree understand the hurt.

We will never agree, so let’s do what we can to support the women so they can make the choice we both think they really want to make. They want the baby. Let’s help them do that.
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Do we support the murderer in the act of killing, the doctor that assists in suicide, the drunk driver while he or she plows into another vehicle killing the unborn baby in the other vehicle.

In this country and are hypocrites–

We will charge the drunk driver with vehicular homicide in killing the baby in the womb when involved in such an incident.

We will charge the boyfriend with murder in assisting his girlfriend in a self abortion in killing the baby in the womb.

We will charge and convict someone of 1st degree murder in the killing of a pregnant women for the baby in the womb.

But we will not charge the doctor with a crime performing an abortion because he is the legal henchman.

Is the baby alive?

Is the baby Human?

Yes there is pro-choice and that is the choice to committ murder or the choice of life.

Quote of Jesus:This is my body I choose to give it up for You?
 
The real hypocrisy here is with the “Pro choice” crowd.
  • They do not believe in giving the child a choice.
  • They do not believe in giving the father a choice.
  • They do not believe in school choice.
  • They do not believe in an employers choice on who to hire.
  • They do not believe in an insurance companies choice to decide whom they want to cover as a spouce. (gay couples)
  • They do not believe in choice when it comes to a myriad of social issues where they want to force everyone to support their point of view even if it forces people to associate with immoral individuals.
It seems the only time the belive in a persons right to “choose” is when women kill their babies.
 
I think, once in a while we need to get hit by the 2X4 of reality to wake up.

The skull & crossed bones image is ugly, but it conveys the message “Danger” to warn us not to proceed.

The partial-birth abortion image convey the same message “Danger. Do not proceed.”

Tak
 
Howl said:
The more senses you engage, the deeper the affect upon the psyche. Talking about abortion is, at least, a two sided dialogue. Showing pictures of abortions is psychological abuse and, frankly, I believe that it is a hate crime.
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This sounds to me like a classic case of “thous dost protest too much”. Is it possible that you had or were responsible for another having an abortion?

How is showing pictures of abortion a “hate crime”. The ULTIMATE hate crime is taking a life and that’s EXACTLY what abortion does.

Your argument makes a much sense as accusing Driver’s Ed classes of hate crimes for showing the horrors of drinking and driving.

Guess what, HOWL? Murdering babies IS wrong. Showing pictures of it and describing its evil is NOT.

As for referring to our Holy Father as “Old Benedict” - grow up and show a little respect.
 
I believe some are missing Dameedna’s point-abortion is about killing a forming child and the mother should be completely informed as to the stage of development of her child before consenting to an abortion.

I have read the stories of many women who were taught that the “baby” was just a mass of cells and who were even told by the doctor performing the abortions that " it is not a baby" When they later learned the truth, they were devastated

By being fully informed, hopefully, these mothers would chose other alternatives to their situation other than abortion. IMHO

What I really do not understand is the mentality that these women are in this situation because of their sinning by having sex.

There are MILLIONS of people who have poorly formed consciences and so not know that premarital sex is wrong, others have “heard” it is wrong, but were not informed as to why-so they disregard that notion.

Pray for the conversion of sinners and an end to abortion during Eucharistic Adoration
 
Howl said:
If she suffers from post-abortion syndrome, she suffers greatly. One could easily argue that this sort of trauma could trigger symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder. In their zeal to protect the unborn, psychopaths who hide behind Christian ideals get to wage an organized war against those poor woman who have actually had abortions. Is this actually Christian?
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I’m not familiar with any Christians who are waging an organized war against women who have had abortions. In fact, that’s where a lot of hurting women go- to Christ and his people for help. Christians are the only ones who recognize what having an abortion does to a woman’s soul and they have reached out to those hurting mothers. As for the “marketing”, they are trying to get women to see what abortion is. A horrible thing that they can never take back once its done. Someone needs to show them, because they won’t get all the facts from the abortionist.

I think the war is against abortion. The people involved in that sick business are acting like psychopaths, don’t you think?
Howl said:
The Jesus who I am down with hung out with really bad people. His crew was made up of prostitutes and tax collectors. He was such a compassionate soul that he forgave the people who crucified him. So why aren’t his followers willing to forgive those women who have abortions? And, if they are, why do they have to use abusive methods that will result in great amounts of suffering?
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Jesus hung out with formerly bad people- people who had repented of their sin. They didn’t continue on with their sin. They weren’t still prostitutes and the tax collectors became honest.
It’s not up to us to “forgive” women who have had abortions. I know several of these women who have sought God’s forgiveness but who still suffer because of their awful “choice”. Does anyone ever get over losing a child? I have only compassion for those who have repented, as I received compassion and forgiveness for my sins.
Howl said:
I think I’ll conclude this with one of my all-time favourite passages from my all-time favourite (accepted) gospel. Matthew 7:21-23 reads, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
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Yes, “only those who do the will of my Father in heaven.”
Ask yourself what would be closer to his will- trying to reason with mothers to not kill their children or performing an abortion, something only an evildoer would do.
 
Jimdandy said:
I believe some are missing Dameedna’s point-abortion is about killing a forming child and the mother should be completely informed as to the stage of development of her child before consenting to an abortion.

I have read the stories of many women who were taught that the “baby” was just a mass of cells and who were even told by the doctor performing the abortions that " it is not a baby" When they later learned the truth, they were devastated

By being fully informed, hopefully, these mothers would chose other alternatives to their situation other than abortion. IMHO
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I understand her point - and it’s a good one - but my point is how can you admit that the unborn child is a human being and still be pro-choice?
Jimdandy said:
What I really do not understand is the mentality that these women are in this situation because of their sinning by having sex.

There are MILLIONS of people who have poorly formed consciences and so not know that premarital sex is wrong, others have “heard” it is wrong, but were not informed as to why-so they disregard that notion.

Pray for the conversion of sinners and an end to abortion during Eucharistic Adoration
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If you’re talking about the attitude of judgmentalism toward individual women, then you have a point. However, I think Christians are incredibly loving and understanding toward women who get pregnant out of wedlock. I don’t see judgmental attitudes on the part of those who reach out to unwed mothers. On the other hand, these women did get themselves into this situation because of their sinful use of sex. Whether they were fully culpable or not, they objectively misused their sexual powers. Shouldn’t we acknowledge that in our public discourse?
 
Arrowood said:
On the other hand, these women did get themselves into this situation because of their sinful use of sex. Whether they were fully culpable or not, they objectively misused their sexual powers. Shouldn’t we acknowledge that in our public discourse?
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Yes. A woman has a “choice” whether to have sex or not. If she gets pregnant, she’s responsible. Her baby shouldn’t have to suffer for her choice.
 
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