Pro-Life Movement...What about abstinence?

[SusanneT]

Hello all. This time of the year is the time in which the Roe vs. Wade decision was made and thousands of people go to Walk for Life marches and the such. The Pro-Life and Catholic organizations remind us how abortion is wrong. I’ve been reflecting a little and I realize that we put a lot of emphasis on how abortion is wrong and that it hurts women. I totally agree with that, but I don’t really see an emphasis on abstinence and chastity. Sex is the only thing that produces babies, so shouldn’t we also emphasize abstinence? We live in highly sexualized world and people start having sex in their teens, and there is no one to tell them that what they are doing is wrong- the media tells them that what they are doing is normal. Sure there may be organizations that promote abstinence but they’re not that popular among the secular teens.

What do you think?

I completely agree that chastity, modesty and abstinence should be taught and encouraged.

They are part of the pro-life debate, because promiscuity and contraception (which inevitably can “fail”) are the causes of abortion.

 

[SusanneT]

I think the problem is we don’t teach respect for women. Every time a man asks me if I will join the march for abortion my reply is ‘As a man, what have you done to help make strip bars illegal’ they all say ‘I don’t go to them’ implying that since they do not go to them, they don’t have to fight to stop them. So I respond, ‘I don’t have abortions so I don’t have to fight to stop them’

Until men organize a movement to make pornography illegal, as much as I am against abortion, I think it will be useless to try to stop it. Only 1 man ever took me seriously and agreed abortion is not the root is it the result of the evil (ie no respect for the sanctity of marriage). However, his wife was dying of cancer and he understandably was not in a position to do much to stop pornography

Angie

We are also afraid to teach women to respect themselves by saying NO to pre-marital sex and to value their purity.

 

[heart4home]

What makes you think we don’t?

I’m involved with the “Respect Life” aspect of our parish and I understand what the OP is getting at.

While we have the occasional program for the teens, including utilizing “theology of the body” and a few public speakers, there is not the overall emphasis on fornication and abstinence.

There was a time, when despite the sinful nature of individuals to want to fulfill their sexual desires, society as a whole, taught that sex was for marriage.

Now a young girl can get the birth control pill as young as 12 without her parents knowledge.

When you see a pro-life demonstration, you see signs that speak about the damage the abortion will do to the woman, but you don’t see any signs about the damage the sex outside of a committed relationship may do.

When was the last time you heard a homily from your priest on waiting for marriage? On fornication? I’ve not heard that from a priest in many years.

The faithful Catholics are teaching their own kids, but who is teaching the rest? One lesson in a year long catechism class in the upper grades if you are lucky.

Tell me how are we reaching the general population on the damage of premarital sex or fornication?

How are we reaching the general population in teaching kids that boyfriends and girlfriends at age 12,14,16, are not cute, but on the contrary a dangerous temptation for many.

Be honest with yourself. What does dating at 16 lead to? Is it hand holding or kissing only? Is kissing OK? Does it go beyond kissing? How much is too much? Who’s teaching the kids and who’s opinions are they being given?

As somebody who is not only a mother, but a Pro Life advocate, I think we are failing.

If we don’t get society seeing that sex outside of marriage is wrong, at least for young people, we will never win the war on abortion.

We all teach about flu prevention and how to avoid it. You don’t just hear it from you doctor once a year, it’s on the news, it’s on the billboards, it’s on commercials, over and over and over because hearing something once, makes you forget about it 5 minutes later.

Who’s teaching about abortion prevention in the CORRECT way?.. Who’s teaching abstinence?

Our young people are growing up in a world, where sex outside of marriage is accepted and flaunted and they are being taught how to “safely” enjoy it without the risk. Even if they avoid STDS and pregnancy, what about the risk to their souls, and their hearts?

 

[heart4home]

I have been a chastity educator for my diocese and I am strongly against abstinence-only education. The short reason is that it has proven to fail because frankly it is about giving someone yes and no answers regarding sexual activity.

Chastity education instead engages people about why and why not to help them think through scenarios and potential decisions. It focuses on not only the impact of our actions on ourselves and others but also compels personal respect therein.

To suggest that the pro-life movement is in any way against this or at least does not make this a priority of emphasis is to be terribly misinformed.

I don’t think it’s terribly misinformed. You are talking about within the Church, yet the Pro-Life message we are trying to send is for everybody. We want the laws of the lands changed and so how do we go out and reach the general population, outside the Church.

Yes, abstinence only education should include discussion. It’s incorrect to say it doesn’t work. It’s in how it’s presented. It’s not simply about saying yes or no to having sex with the latter choice meaning you won’t get pregnant or an STD, but should delve into the question of why you want to have sex and the emotional ramifications, and I think they have attempted to do so, but under the politically correct rules and the very limited time frame that school offers for the subject.

Inside a parish you can teach about faith and morals, and label it chastity education.

Outside in a public school setting, you need it to teach about respecting yourself and each other in an "abstinence only” sex education program. You are not going to be able to bring God into a public school setting.

It’s not about the name, it’s about the content and its basis…as well as the minimal amount of time the public school setting allots for it. It’s easier to say, “everybody is sexual” “it’s normal to be sexual” and so these are the safe ways to deal with your sexuality, than it is for schools to delve into meaningful discussion of what that means and the life long effect it will have. Why? Because on the surface the life long effect is different for everybody based on their moral compass. I know many full grown adults that had many partners over the years and they think it helped them to grow and develop and see it as a good thing. They have a different start and end point so to speak…

Today, everybody has a different moral gauge for sexuality. They don’t bring God into their bedrooms or lives, and you will find that professionals have different beliefs of what sexual relationships do to the individual long term, so the public school setting becomes an impossible place to present material without them being accused of them inflicting their personal beliefs into the mix.

If we want abortions to be reduced or eliminated, then we have to reach everybody, not just Catholics with an in parish chastity program. I think the OP is asking how are we doing that and personally, I don’t think we are.

We hold signs to end abortion, we get billboards that show a tiny fetus and its beating heart, we offer some help and services to unmarried mothers, but we aren’t reaching them BEFORE they get to having that second tiny beating heart within them.

 

[gardenswithkids]

People within the pro-life movement do not all agree on what chastity is. Many people recognize the humanity of human embryos and oppose the killing of humans within the womb, but not all of them share the same attitudes towards sexual morality.

While I support teaching abstinence and chastity, doing so in *direct connection *with the pro-life movement risks chasing some of our supporters away. While there certainly is a connection between abortion and the general declining standards of sexual morality, not everyone can see easily see it. People don’t have to see that contraception or pre-marital sex is wrong before they’re able to see that it’s wrong to kill young humans within their mother’s wombs.

We are winning the hearts and minds of young people who now identity in greater numbers as “pro-life”. This is the generation who grew up having seen themselves as embryos through pre-natal ultra-sound pictures in their own baby books. It’s getting harder and harder for people to deny the humanity of babies in the womb. Let’s not put up barriers for these people that make it harder for them to identify as pro-life.

 

[Xantippe]

People within the pro-life movement do not all agree on what chastity is. Many people recognize the humanity of human embryos and oppose the killing of humans within the womb, but not all of them share the same attitudes towards sexual morality.

While I support teaching abstinence and chastity, doing so in *direct connection *with the pro-life movement risks chasing some of our supporters away. While there certainly is a connection between abortion and the general declining standards of sexual morality, not everyone can see easily see it. People don’t have to see that contraception or pre-marital sex is wrong before they’re able to see that it’s wrong to kill young humans within their mother’s wombs.

We are winning the hearts and minds of young people who now identity in greater numbers as “pro-life”. This is the generation who grew up having seen themselves as embryos through pre-natal ultra-sound pictures in their own baby books. It’s getting harder and harder for people to deny the humanity of babies in the womb. Let’s not put up barriers for these people that make it harder for them to identify as pro-life.

Yes.

People tend to forget this, but just as young people tend to support gay marriage more than in the past, etc., they also are more pro-life than in the past.

It may sound contradictory, but I think the connecting thread is that young people don’t want to be mean, and abortion sounds mean.

 

[randomuser]

Yes.

People tend to forget this, but just as young people tend to support gay marriage more than in the past, etc., they also are more pro-life than in the past.

It may sound contradictory, but I think the connecting thread is that young people don’t want to be mean, and abortion sounds mean.

And people also forget that there’s the gay group Log Cabin Republicans, there’s also PLAGAL (Pro-Life Alliance and Gays and Lesbians) and Pro-Life Muslims.

Things on the pro-life front lines are bound to get a little awkward pretty soon – gays and Muslims working to save the same unborn babies.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Yes.

People tend to forget this, but just as young people tend to support gay marriage more than in the past, etc., they also are more pro-life than in the past.

It may sound contradictory, but I think the connecting thread is that young people don’t want to be mean, and abortion sounds mean.

It sounds mean because abortion is mean.

“Abortion is mean”–that should be a slogan that we use more.

 

[randomuser]

People within the pro-life movement do not all agree on what chastity is. Many people recognize the humanity of human embryos and oppose the killing of humans within the womb, but not all of them share the same attitudes towards sexual morality.

While I support teaching abstinence and chastity, doing so in *direct connection *with the pro-life movement risks chasing some of our supporters away. While there certainly is a connection between abortion and the general declining standards of sexual morality, not everyone can see easily see it. People don’t have to see that contraception or pre-marital sex is wrong before they’re able to see that it’s wrong to kill young humans within their mother’s wombs.

We are winning the hearts and minds of young people who now identity in greater numbers as “pro-life”. This is the generation who grew up having seen themselves as embryos through pre-natal ultra-sound pictures in their own baby books. It’s getting harder and harder for people to deny the humanity of babies in the womb. Let’s not put up barriers for these people that make it harder for them to identify as pro-life.

This is also the generation that only knows healthcare (including childbirth and delivery) to be awfully expensive, often requiring debt and in some cases bankruptcy to cover hospital bills. How is that not a barrier to identify as “pro-life”? People still vote with their checkbooks, and if some of the younger “pro-life” generation simply cannot afford the expense to have a baby, and can’t find the assistance (because they’re not poor enough or not destitute enough or don’t have family or a husband to assist), it’s very, very easy to go to the ‘dark side’ and become ‘pro-abortion.’ It usually happens in college – not in grade school, not in high school, but in college, where they see firsthand how obscenely-priced childbirth and delivery is an obstacle the pro-life will inevitably need to address. (Fortunately, pro-life groups like Feminists For Life already do regard it as an inescapable part of what it means to be pro-life.) In other words, that moment in real life when pro-life becomes less about platitudes and bumper-sticker talk and tallying off how many babies have been killed since 1973 and more about how choosing life isn’t any more “free” than freedom is.

 

[Xantippe]

This is also the generation that only knows healthcare (including childbirth and delivery) to be awfully expensive, often requiring debt and in some cases bankruptcy to cover hospital bills. How is that not a barrier to identify as “pro-life”? People still vote with their checkbooks, and if some of the younger “pro-life” generation simply cannot afford the expense to have a baby, and can’t find the assistance (because they’re not poor enough or not destitute enough or don’t have family or a husband to assist), it’s very, very easy to go to the ‘dark side’ and become ‘pro-abortion.’ It usually happens in college – not in grade school, not in high school, but in college, where they see firsthand how obscenely-priced childbirth and delivery is an obstacle the pro-life will inevitably need to address. (Fortunately, pro-life groups like Feminists For Life already do regard it as an inescapable part of what it means to be pro-life.) In other words, that moment in real life when pro-life becomes less about platitudes and bumper-sticker talk and tallying off how many babies have been killed since 1973 and more about how choosing life isn’t any more “free” than freedom is.

I don’t think undergraduate college students actually do think a whole bunch about health care expenses.

And a college student would almost certainly fall into the 50% of pregnancies and deliveries paid for by Medicaid.

I think a college student is more likely to think about embarrassment, disappointing their parents, losing financial support from parents, losing their friends, losing their youth, losing the “college experience,” being shamed by their religious community, having a harder time getting married, not ever getting married, struggling in school or flunking out, carrying student loans without having managed to get a degree, etc.

I haven’t known a lot of unmarried college student mothers, but I have known a number of graduate student mothers, and academically speaking, getting pregnant is like hitting a brick wall. Even under reasonable circumstances (medical insurance, marriage, being a mature adult, helpful grandparents, supportive peer group) it takes a long time to recover and move ahead. Conservatively speaking, it seems to take 2-3 years from the start of pregnancy until a woman can get back on track in a graduate program. (The daddies seem to take it in stride.)

 

[randomuser]

I haven’t known a lot of unmarried college student mothers, but I have known a number of graduate student mothers, and academically speaking, getting pregnant is like hitting a brick wall. Even under reasonable circumstances (medical insurance, marriage, being a mature adult, helpful grandparents, supportive peer group) it takes a long time to recover and move ahead. Conservatively speaking, it seems to take 2-3 years from the start of pregnancy until a woman can get back on track in a graduate program. (The daddies seem to take it in stride.)

^^ which is why the expense of choosing life needs to be part what means to be pro-life. Everyone already has life (even unborn babies in the womb.) Isn’t pro-life, in actual practice, really about getting to be born? Why, except for pro-life groups like Feminists For Life, is being born the one thing nobody who’s pro-life ever wants to talk about? I seems odd to me that we’re all trying to outlaw abortion and overturn Roe v. Wade, yet nobody wants to talk about HOW that baby gets born. K of C, someone pointed out, donated some ultrasound machines to some Crisis Pregnancy Centers. I wish there could be “scholarship”-type grants to help cover non-crisis pregnancies – that would make a huge difference.

 

[Xantippe]

^^ which is why the expense of choosing life needs to be part what means to be pro-life. Everyone already has life (even unborn babies in the womb.) Isn’t pro-life, in actual practice, really about getting to be born? Why, except for pro-life groups like Feminists For Life, is being born the one thing nobody who’s pro-life ever wants to talk about? I seems odd to me that we’re all trying to outlaw abortion and overturn Roe v. Wade, yet nobody wants to talk about HOW that baby gets born. K of C, someone pointed out, donated some ultrasound machines to some Crisis Pregnancy Centers. I wish there could be “scholarship”-type grants to help cover non-crisis pregnancies – that would make a huge difference.

Do you have any empirical data suggesting that the expense of labor and delivery drives abortion in any meaningful way?

Abortion in the US is largely a low income phenomenon and childbirth for low income mothers is covered by Medicaid.

Here’s some info from Guttmacher:

“What proportion of abortions in the United States are among poor women?”

“Women with family incomes below the federal poverty level ($18,530 for a family of three) account for more than 40% of all abortions.[32] They also have one of the country’s highest abortion rates (52 per 1,000 women). In contrast, higher-income women (with family incomes at or above 200% of the poverty line) have a rate of nine abortions per 1,000, which is about half the national rate.”

I’ll note here that 200% of the poverty line is still not very financially comfortable, but there’s nonetheless a major drop-off in the prevalence of abortion between poverty level and 200% of poverty level.

“Why do women in the United States have abortions?”

“Most women identify multiple reasons for having an abortion: Three-fourths cite concerns for or responsibility to other individuals, including children; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.”

“How old are most women who obtain abortions in the United States?”

“More than half of American women obtaining abortions are in their 20s.[32] Women aged 20–24 have the highest abortion rate of any age-group (40 abortions per 1,000 women).”

I’d point out that 20-24 has a large overlap with the college population.

 

[heart4home]

People within the pro-life movement do not all agree on what chastity is. Many people recognize the humanity of human embryos and oppose the killing of humans within the womb, but not all of them share the same attitudes towards sexual morality.

While I support teaching abstinence and chastity, doing so in *direct connection *with the pro-life movement risks chasing some of our supporters away. While there certainly is a connection between abortion and the general declining standards of sexual morality, not everyone can see easily see it. People don’t have to see that contraception or pre-marital sex is wrong before they’re able to see that it’s wrong to kill young humans within their mother’s wombs.

We are winning the hearts and minds of young people who now identity in greater numbers as “pro-life”. This is the generation who grew up having seen themselves as embryos through pre-natal ultra-sound pictures in their own baby books. It’s getting harder and harder for people to deny the humanity of babies in the womb. Let’s not put up barriers for these people that make it harder for them to identify as pro-life.

I understand what you are saying, however respecting the dignity of every human, from conception to natural death includes the teaching of young people to respect themselves and their bodies.

Not just abortion but STDS, HIV/AIDS, suicide and self harm, are all consequences that can be tied to people’s view and participation in sex. This is all part of a respect life mission.

How many of the young people that you are winning the hearts and minds of do you believe are non-Christian?

I believe there is increased exuberance and enthusiasm among Catholic Pro-life young people as well as non-Catholic Christians but I’m not so sure about the general population.

We need to look for ways to reach the young secular people as well.

We have to be careful that to not isolate or offend with our words to save unborn lives, that we dont’ neglect our responsibilities to save those already born from the consequences of their actions.

 

[St_Pancake]

I have been a chastity educator for my diocese and I am strongly against abstinence-only education. The short reason is that it has proven to fail because frankly it is about giving someone yes and no answers regarding sexual activity.

Chastity education instead engages people about why and why not to help them think through scenarios and potential decisions. It focuses on not only the impact of our actions on ourselves and others but also compels personal respect therein.

To suggest that the pro-life movement is in any way against this or at least does not make this a priority of emphasis is to be terribly misinformed.

Perhaps I’m missing something here but if you’re against abstinence only education, does that mean that you support contraception?

 

[Xantippe]

Perhaps I’m missing something here but if you’re against abstinence only education, does that mean that you support contraception?

Does opposing DARE mean that I support drug use for tweens?

gao.gov/products/GAO-03-172R

Opposing particular programs does not mean that one opposes the goals of the program.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Does opposing DARE mean that I support drug use for tweens?

gao.gov/products/GAO-03-172R

Opposing particular programs does not mean that one opposes the goals of the program.

Exactly.

I loathe most abstinence programs directed at teens not because I think teens should be sexually active, but because it’s presented very, very badly with some messages that are either wrong or deeply twisted.

I’ve mentioned this example before, but it seems relevant. In one rather popular series of lectures geared towards teaching teens abstinence, the speaker/coordinator hands one of the kids a rose, tells him to look at it, smell it, mess around with it however he wants, and then pass it to the next kid. After 30+ teens have handled it, the speaker will take it back and hold it up. At that point, of course, the flower is pretty beaten up–missing some petals, wilted, etc. The speaker then explains that this flower is a girl who has sex before marriage. He then hold up another, perfect, unhandled flower, and says that the flower is a girl who hasn’t had sex before marriage. Which flower do the boys want? Resounding chorus, of course, of “the pretty flower.” He then turns to the girls and tells them, “See? The boys want a pretty flower like this one, so wait until marriage.”

This is seriously problematic in a lot of ways.

1. Apparently, girls who have sex before marriage are damaged goods, but boys aren’t.
2. Boys aren’t responsible for sexual sins, but girls are.
3. Girls should “be” what boys want so that a boy will marry them, not because sexual purity is a very good thing, period, no matter what one’s state in life.
4. Boys “deserve” a “good girl,” even if boys don’t wait til marriage, but if a girl has sex before marriage and then marries a bad man, it’s her fault.

Etc.

 

[St_Pancake]

Does opposing DARE mean that I support drug use for tweens?

gao.gov/products/GAO-03-172R

Opposing particular programs does not mean that one opposes the goals of the program.

It is only a question that wasn’t directed at you but thanks for sharing your point.

 

[Kenny_Kamel]

Perhaps I’m missing something here but if you’re against abstinence only education, does that mean that you support contraception?

Chastity education > Abstinence education

Based on my experience abstinence education tends to fail because it focuses on consequences using fear as the motivator. The crude way I would describe how it is perceived is, “don’t have sex because you’ll get pregnant and that is consequence you don’t want to deal with.”

Teach this to teens who engage in a push-the-envelope mentality, they don’t fear consequences until they become reality. Most often I have seen braggers talk up how successful they are at avoiding pregnancy while engaging in promiscuity as often as possible. Many treat sex like a game and they view the avoidance of pregnancy as winning. Those who “lose” at this game are at high risk of procuring an abortion or abortifacient contrivance.

OTOH the results I have seen through chastity education tend to be excellent not only in how people treat their sexuality but also in how they enhance all aspects of their lives. In my estimation it comes down to respect which is so lacking development in so many during this time.

 

[Xantippe]

Chastity education > Abstinence education

Based on my experience abstinence education tends to fail because it focuses on consequences using fear as the motivator. The crude way I would describe how it is perceived is, “don’t have sex because you’ll get pregnant and that is consequence you don’t want to deal with.”

Teach this to teens who engage in a push-the-envelope mentality, they don’t fear consequences until they become reality. Most often I have seen braggers talk up how successful they are at avoiding pregnancy while engaging in promiscuity as often as possible. Many treat sex like a game and they view the avoidance of pregnancy as winning. Those who “lose” at this game are at high risk of procuring an abortion or abortifacient contrivance.

OTOH the results I have seen through chastity education tend to be excellent not only in how people treat their sexuality but also in how they enhance all aspects of their lives. In my estimation it comes down to respect which is so lacking development in so many during this time.

That’s very hopeful!

There’s also the problem that the between-the-lines message is “and having a baby is the worst thing EVER.”

 

[Kelfa28]

Chastity education > Abstinence education

Based on my experience abstinence education tends to fail because it focuses on consequences using fear as the motivator. The crude way I would describe how it is perceived is, “don’t have sex because you’ll get pregnant and that is consequence you don’t want to deal with.”

Teach this to teens who engage in a push-the-envelope mentality, they don’t fear consequences until they become reality. Most often I have seen braggers talk up how successful they are at avoiding pregnancy while engaging in promiscuity as often as possible. Many treat sex like a game and they view the avoidance of pregnancy as winning. Those who “lose” at this game are at high risk of procuring an abortion or abortifacient contrivance.

OTOH the results I have seen through chastity education tend to be excellent not only in how people treat their sexuality but also in how they enhance all aspects of their lives. In my estimation it comes down to respect which is so lacking development in so many during this time.

I love the idea of teaching chastity above abstinence only. Abstinence education is really an either/or scenario. You either have sex or you don’t. If you do…you’re good, if you don’t…you’re bad. Don’t have sex.

Chastity involves so much more then just saying no to sex. It gives teens purpose and direction and encouragement.
It actually prepares them for marriage…instead of the desperate attempt to just make it to the alter…much like abstinence only education.

Chastity goes far beyond the alter and gives teens tools on how to be a good spouse…throughout their marriage.

Abstinence only teaches them that they only need to make it to the alter…once that happens, all bets are off.
Sex is suddenly okay…until it isn’t (for whatever reason) and then they are suddenly back at square one without the tools on how to handle it.